Why Solar Needs to Change | Michael Fakukakis, Founder & CEO @ Mechatron Solar Inc

Oh, today on the show we have Michael Fakukaki. Michael is a co-founder and a leader at the company Mechatron Trackers. Mechatron produces a patented technology. Uh it is a certain kind of tracker as you can tell by the name that maximizes the amount of energy that a solar panel uh can produce uh by being

very accurate uh not only resilient to um weather conditions like like wind or or clouds but also uh depending on the angle of the sun at a particular day uh it will maximize the amount of uh coverage and uh electricity production.

Michael has a an incredible personal relationship to entrepreneurship uh to growing businesses. Uh he's done a few uh and the the mentality uh we speak a lot about the technology and market conditions and energy but also about the mentality of entrepreneurship which I love. [laughter] So it was a wonderful conversation. I know it'll be uh

valuable educational for you. Thank you as always to our sponsors, Crazy Friends, the producers of this podcast, and Clean Tech Growth Lab. If you're looking to grow in clean tech, they are the people to do it with. And with that, I give you Michael.

Hello, welcome to another episode of The Grove. Shout out to our sponsors mentioned just before this and it is always a special day, special opportunity when I get to highlight an inspiring person for my personal network just like Michael. Welcome.

Thank you for having me and great to be here. Man, I you are you are a legend in the solar space. And for anyone that doesn't know yet, I I I won't go that far, but uh I know my I've done enough so I can claim my place in fame.

Yeah, we we'll we'll let other people decide by the end of the by the end of the episode, but I've made my decision. So, for anyone that doesn't know yet, if you could give a brief introduction of yourself and what you're building.

So, yeah. Uh name is Michael, last name Fakukakis, born and raised in Greece. Uh got my first degree in physics from a school in Greece, University of Patra. Then I came to the US in 1989 18 1990 to get my masters in engineering. I specialize in telecommunications and uh data algorithms.

I was uh part of the very original group of people who built the internet. M uh I was the first one who built um complex data algorithms for uh large customers like BOVA and uh state of California and um applied materials. I mean I had so many glorious jobs and contracts working as a specialist in

data networking. Anyway, so uh I did a number of years in the US working in telecommunications and data networking. Then I moved back to Greece in 1998. Got it. Uh that was a year after my son was born. That's how I remember it. And uh we spent with a family another 13 14

years building companies in Greece. Originally two telecom companies which I built and I sold. And then in uh 2011 I believe we I got switched away from telecom and I got myself involved with uh renewables solar. Um I became uh early on a a local distributor of Cindra. Some people still remember the

name. It was like one of the first innovations in solar business using uh cylindrical shaped tubes absorbing the light from top and the bottom. It was a very innovative solution and idea but it didn't work. It didn't work financially. It was very expensive to manufacture. So the company went belly up. It went bankrupt. So we

kind of lost a great opportunity to do business in Europe. [snorts] And at the same time I was involved with Meatron. Meatron was built by a group of individuals, myself included, back in 2007, 2008 was the first year that the company was came out there to build the first innovative gearless trackers.

And uh it did it did work well over the the last uh from 2007 8 until 2013. The company was doing great and then the government changed and the policies changed and the European policy changed overall. So we kind of lost all of our business. Um so we decided to move the company to the US.

So since January of 2014, the company moved to the US in California. And since then it's a one-way highway for us trying to go fast and try to go higher to get business running. So from 2014 until today the company has already closed 12 years of operation.

Incredible. And I mean and we can talk about this you know we can give you more details on how the company has evolved but the transition from Europe to the US was was a challenge. Yeah. So a lot so 12 years uh running any business is awesome. So we do have to talk about that before we get into

Megatron though something personally it's uh across your life it seems like you've always been uh engaged in entrepreneurship. Uh did you always think you were going to start companies build them or did something happen at some point where you said I want to be an entrepreneur?

Well, I think that's how I was built from my father since I was 10. [snorts] He in well see my father he's not with us any longer but the way he lived his life a poor farmer with no education being a a lone wolf in his life working hard to make a living for the family and

then trying to grow his business. He was a farmer and then eventually he became a photographer, professional photographer and through that avenue he managed to make money. He managed to build homes. He managed to build property and he he was always financially independent. He was never an employee. He was never an employee of any employer ever. [snorts]

So that got into me. I mean I learned to be that way subconsciously from my father's experience from my father's example. So when I grew up and I became even from the age of 14 15 when I was working for other people to make a buck summer vacation working you know in the fields

or in the tourism business. I knew in my mind that I would never be an employee. I did that when I was younger to make some money to go to the next level. But when I became independent after I finished school and uh I finished my graduate studies in Santa Clara in California, I knew that I could never be

an employee. So I worked for a year to get my visa, my H1B, and then my green card. As soon as I got that done, I quit. So I'm out. And then I started consulting for a few years and then I built my own companies.

Right. So since 1993, yeah, I was entrepreneur. I never worked for anybody else since then. I have I never I have never seen a W2 since then. Well, you you've seen them. You just been setting setting them out, you know, instead of receiving as a so um so you made your way into

renewables uh at some point, which is why we're here. But what why why was it that you started uh in telecommunications? What drew you to that industry? That was the passion I had when I was in college. When I was in my first undergraduate degree in physics, physics is a is a fascinating science. I

don't know if you ever took any physics classes in college or in high school. Physics is fascinating. I mean the things you learn, how much your brain opens up, how much you understand this of the of the the surroundings, the the environment, uh chemically and electrically, how things are can be explained. It is a phenomenon science.

So through physics, I was exposed to electronics and especially digital electronics. Back then, back in the 80s, there was not much of telecom. It was very basic technologies. But back then the there was some technology called flip-flops that were used to transition bits and flips and bits and pieces between points of reference. And I was I

was fascinated by flip-flops and I spent almost six months and I built my own f first personal PC with a display and a keyboard and a code. I I wrote for Pascal and Forran languages to interface between the display to the to the machine to the machine of the CPU.

So it was fascinating the things I was able to do back in the age of 1920. So that's when I decided that I want to be a telecom expert. Got it. So I switched all my studies on the fourth year to digital electronics and micro microprocessors and um I graduated with a specialty in

telecom and then I applied uh to several schools in Silicon Valley. I I I didn't even apply to other states. I think I applied only to California schools and in particular Bay Area schools because they had the expertise. Silicon Valley was there. So I wanted to be right I want to go right to the core right where

things were happening. So I came here I went to I was accepted by Santa Clara University a private Jesuit school and with a scholarship and the rest is history. So so then so then after that you went in the direction uh you built some of those companies you brought technology back to Greece you built companies

there. Um, from the experiences that you had building those companies, is there I mean there's a ton that we could talk about, but let's pick maybe two things, two of uh maybe the the most influential lessons that you took from growing and selling those companies that impact how you decided to grow Megatron.

Well, [sighs and gasps] there was a very negative uh influence that I had experienced with uh my investor who invested money in my second tele company in Greece. Basically, it was a very bad relationship. Sure. um the the the agreement and the contractual agreement

and the the business agreement between me the company founder and the investor were never met were never honored. So they lied to me. They gave me wrong false hopes. Sure. Sure. At the end of the day they pushed me out.

Okay. I built the company in in record time. Yeah. And because they didn't want me to be or take the company to the level I wanted to take it, they pushed me out. They get somebody else. The company went bankrupt. They lost the money. They lost me. So, it was a bad it was really a bad

experience that made me think that if I can do things on my own, I'll do things without investors. I don't trust basically this is this is bottom line. don't trust easily investors because I know how they are most of them not all of them it's just it's a matter of luck to find the right person who

understands what you can do and to respect and honor the the agreement people in power they exploit people and I'm 60 years old I've seen that way too many times I allowed that to happen to me once and never again wow okay other people, but I've seen other people, a friends of mine, other

people in the industry that they have been exploited and they've been pushed to the cliff. So that's one thing that impacted when you started Meatron. You said, "I'm doing this on my own." No, that No, that was that was before that was an experience I I I absorbed while I was in Greece,

right? But once you got to Megatron. Yeah. So when I when I got into Megatron, I I worked with my with my partners. Got We did a partnership based on equal contribution and nobody nobody's the god. Nobody is uh the the the mammoth who's going to control how things will be.

I work in in equilibrium with my partners. Right. Right. We decide jointly. There's always one guy who makes the final decision but it's based on collaboration, based on agreement, based on amicable agreements. So that's how I like to work. And if I ever use investors in my business, it has to be a very very thorough

investigation on my side to understand who this person is and what is the motive. Was was there uh was there a second thing that comes to mind as far as something that significantly influences how you uh well when it comes to Megatron there was so many experiences that we acquired through the the years the very

first one that kind of put a stigma on the Meatron's growth was how difficult it is to fight establishment. M and we'll go through that in a minute in detail, but basically when you try to introduce a new technology into an establishment that makes money or accommodates existing companies with lesser of a

technology but with huge pockets, they fight dirty. They they they spread words. They spread rumors. They backstab technologies that they are better than theirs just because they know that if they allow this to proliferate, they'll lose and they'll lose a lot of money. So big establishments fight dirty.

So either you're with them or without them or you choose to move your battles elsewhere. Yeah. Far away. So we're going to we're going to get into how you've navigated that. And right before we do, what we talked about Megatron so much by now. What is the core technology? What is it that the company is?

[snorts] So the company has uh designed we have designed back in 2008 and we have since then we had different uh iterations and designs of the technology but basically it is the same concept based on a gearless mechanism that allows a very short very small set of brakes to manage and to move a

humongous platform. I'm talking about 1,800 square ft. The platform that we move on a daily basis, left and right, up and down, is 1,800 square feet. It's like it's like equal to the size of the Boeing 747 wings.

Yeah. If you can understand the size of that machine, right? And we're using a three foot diameter brake system to move it and control it and fight winds and find uh uplifting forces and whatever. I mean it's it's a very difficult situation when you have to fight not just the weight of this system but also the winds

that can be very prevailing in some areas. So the design is based on a gearless system. Uh, [clears throat] it uses hydraulic pressure to control two bands with a passive brake. I I don't want to bore people because it's very complicated, but basically it's all based on a gearless double brake band system

and and the the the point is to make the the solar panel uh more resilient or to maximize the amount of it. The dual action tracker by geometry and by physics creates probably 40% more power compared to a stationary ground mount or rooftop solar system. So if you take a panel and you place it on a roof or on the ground

fixed, it produces X amount of kilowatt hours per year. If you put that very same panel on a moving platform that follows the sun and places the plat the panel vertically to the sun beams from the sunrise to the sunset you can produce on an annual basis 40% more and with the new bifial gain modules it

can go 60% more. So [snorts] that is huge financially that is huge. Yes. Has this has this product um how has the product evolved over the 12 years since you started? Well, the product is the same. I we haven't made serious changes in the brake system.

Incredible. Because that that's a pretty fixed pattern protected hydraulic system. But the we have improved the guidance system, the tracking system, the the software has changed a number of times. Okay. Uh but those are those are like supplementary components. The main component which is the gearless system with hydraulic pressure uh and a passive brake. They are the

same for the last 18 years. Got it. Because it's very stable. It is very stable. It is is rock solid. No reason to make a change. If something works so well, don't change it. We improved it by putting new components and changing suppliers. So we have more reliable hydraulic cylinders and more reliable

hydraulic hoses and more reliable band systems, things that can be improved at the component level. We've done it, but the design itself is the same. Got it. But what you did do then if you didn't uh change too much the core technology, what you did do is you found an application for it and you grew into

that uh into that population. So when you were at the very beginning and you said you decided you said I want to do this company this is where I'm going. Did you use uh an existing network that you had um to find your first customers or find your first pilots? Uh what what

was the what was the experience at the very beginning of Matron getting the first customer? That was a tough game. There was a tough game starting this business with nobody uh with zero network. We had zero network. Okay. It's like we started from the scratch.

So, I mean, we I I tried to unravel my personal connections in California. We got to connect with people in the industry, some Greeks, some Greek Americans, some Americans that I used to know for my first uh lifespan in California. It took two years, two years to land the first customer in uh in an

area called Mary'sville, north of Sacramento. He was the first customer. He was a farmer who understood hydraulics. When he saw we we built a demo machine in a US in a facility that is under the UC Davis uh lab and demo areas. So we gave them machine, we installed it and they they assessed it

and they give us a a bankability report. So we use that site to bring customers to demonstrate the system. So those demonstrations landed the first customer. It was like a farmer up in Mery'sville. They gave us the first million. We get the job done. We became well known in the area. And from that

moment we start, you know, rolling over new customers and new areas and new partnerships. So you said say that again. Two years it took. It took exactly two and a half years to be precise. Two and a half years. What company started in January of 20 2014 we landed the first contract in June of

2016. So what what kept you going in that in that two and a half years? Uh well it's a it's a personal issue to me to be successful. So I never give up. I never give up if I believe that I can be successful and if I know that what I have is a solution to many problems.

Yeah. And I know that all I need to do is educate the market. Yeah, that's what I did. I went to shows and conferences and symposiums and uh I met with people left and right and I all I did was I was promoting the technology and I was talking about the system. Uh

initially I faced um skepticism, negative negative approach, negative feelings. Uh everybody was pushing back on the dual axis tracker. It was not what they would consider as a safe technology back then because so many other companies failed to do a reliable system. So I was fighting against the market that was facing failing dualis

trucker systems. So I was the only one who was claiming at point that I am reliable and I have this difference in technology that makes me reliable. Nobody wouldn't believe. I mean, two years I would get fists and fingers and negative feelings and push back and it it was it was distressing, honest

to God. But, you know, when you have issues, all you need to do is keep fighting and keep fighting until you get to the finish line. Well, so so some something that uh that means a lot to me about this podcast is getting to talk to people like you and really understand how people are able to get through

periods like that to get through challenges in their company to grow companies, things like that. Um it is really awesome to hear that uh the main thing or one of the main things at least is just this determination, this belief in yourself it's going to work out. this this commitment to the idea is there any

is uh cuz because I don't believe well I know for a fact that it's a common challenge when you're trying to bring an innovative technology to a certain space to to get a lot of um uh reactions the way that you're speaking to even if it is uh the better choice for that

customer base. So, is there anything else that you would say like, you know, say you're speaking to several people that have an innovative technology um and they're trying to bring it to market and they're facing those same experiences. Is there anything else that you would say uh helped you get through that that period?

Well, determination is required. Belief in your product is required. um support from your family is required. I mean you need to have personal support otherwise things don't go go as well. Uh so it's a combination of many things but I think the driving factor is self-determination if you believe in it if you have it in you because none not

everybody is made of material to be entrepreneur. Mhm. It takes certain type of people and personalities and egos and uh self-determination. So you have to have those soft characteristics to make it work. Many people try and most of them fail.

So you have to have that deep faith in yourself in what you do so you can transpire that across to the audience. Getting fired up. Okay. Let's go. Let's do [laughter] that's great. So, so after you got this uh this first customer, so I do have it written down here that that uh you applied and

received a patent. So, I'm curious about your experience with that. Um, but right before we get there, after this first customer, how did you how did you use that case study and then go into different segments? And is your is the customer that you go after today still the same kind of customer? Are they

farmers or has that evolved over time? Well, yeah. So that type of um documentation we acquired from VU Davis helped us to go through existing EPC companies. So basically we pushed that type of a or technical document to neighboring companies in Sacramento, in San Jose, down in the valley, Fresno just to show them to show them a proof

that the technology works and we did see some reaction positive reaction which gave us some more new avenues to sell the product to different customers. From that day until today, we have retained the same customer base, farmers, dairy farmers, uh commercial building owners, parking lot owners.

Uh so basically we have expanded to every sing every possible domain that this tracker can be usable. The good news is that the technology is so adverse and so flexible that can be applied everywhere. I mean right now we have applied the system in utility scale projects in parking lots in farms in uh

commercial buildings in uh community solar projects. Uh we have and we have installed it in rolling hills in flooding zones. The machine is so flexible because it uses a single pillar Mhm. to place on top of it. So by having a single concrete pillar that can be as tall as 14 ft, you eliminate all the

environmental restrictions that other technologies have to face. Is it is it also um being so applicable across so many different customer segments? Is it can it also be a challenge for trying to uh you know focus resources on growing in a particular in a particular segment or have you found that it's that that it

is an advantage? Well, yeah. the the the the most difficult domain that we cannot penetrate easily is the large utility scale domain. And that this this is the hardest domain to to penetrate because we face a very strong opposition from big developers who have used traditionally the single axis trackers which are a lot less productive.

They're a lot cheaper of course, but they produce 20% less energy. And with a bacial gain, they produce between 35 to 40% less compared to our tracker. Problem is that those companies are very large, very powerful. Two of them actually are in the stock market. So they have the means to promote their

technology to big projects. So big developers and big utilities like PG& in California or Duke or all those big players around the country they they prefer to do business with established well-known rich balance sheet companies. We're not we're small compared to them and we don't present a a reliable source of technology that can take them to the

next 20 years. So that makes us an unwanted undesirable technology. Although we are better but we're small. So we're right now we're facing about the threshold whether we can grow with a large developer who can take us and take us to the next level. So we can start selling megawatts and megawws or continue

growing into the utility into the commercial private sector which is a lot less compared to the to the utility scale projects but at the same time it presents to us a steady growth that does not require investments and private investors and the things that I don't like to do as much.

Yeah. Right. Wow. Fascinating. So um so when well first of all is this technology specific to um solar panels or do do you attach it to anything else? Yeah. Well before I ask it can be used it can be used in other applications like mainly like satellite tracking.

Okay. Yeah. Because because the granularity of the movement is very small. We can move we can move a platform with one degree uh accuracy. So it could potentially be redesigned to be used in other applications. Okay. But as things stand, we are 100% uh uh dedicated to the solar business.

Okay. So with that in mind, what has your experience been with the uh the development of the solar the solar industry solar market as a whole? Because there's been so much, you know, there's all this attention on electricity production and the grid and all this stuff because of data centers and uh, you know, everything that comes

with bringing those online and uh rising energy uh costs for consu for uh end consumers like regular everyday people. And so I've seen a lot of content about um not only battery storage being extremely cheap, but solar and wind finally being at a place where the technology is uh it makes sense and it's

a lot cheaper than uh something like oil or fossil fuels. It's just the large scale infrastructure, you know, continues to to be built out. So what has your experience been selling this technology specifically in solar with how uh how the market has developed over time because it seems everyone's a lot more receptive to mark to solar in

general. Yeah. Well, so here's the deal. Here's the the the point of differentiation between solar and the rest of the renewables. And before we do that, let me step back a little bit. Do it. The for the last 25 to 30 years the renewables have been facing partially skepticism from one spectrum of the political

spectrum and immense help from another spectrum. The truth is that when solar became a viable solution back in 1990s it was very expensive. It was very expensive. The manufacturing of everything was very expensive. The modules, the inverters, the trackers, everything was very expensive.

I mean, I remember we used to sell €6 per watt and €7 per watt. That's like compared to today's $1 per watt, that was a huge expense. Mhm. That's why utilities and governments in Europe and the US, Europe first and then US followed up with 10 years lag, they subsidized it. I mean there was

subsidies up the gazoo subsidizing solar and wind. Those subsidies over time they faded away because the cost of production of the raw materials dropped significantly. So nowadays you can sell a a solar system of a large scale solar system between a dollar to a dollar and a half per watt.

Sure. Right. At the same time though the revenue dropped. So right now P& in California and Duke on the east coast they are procuring large scale projects offering six 6 and a half cents a kilowatt hour. That is like really low. Yeah.

And that rate of selling power to the grid is very comparable I would say at par with fossil fuel plants, nuclear plants, gas turbine plants, coal plants. Every every traditional way of producing power using fossil fuels and traditional means has been has been uh eliminated has been has been reached at par with the

renewable. That's right. Right. So nowadays it's not a matter of helping the renewables because they have already reached a very comfortable level of low cost of producing electricity to be competitive with the traditional sources. And I give you an example.

Our numbers show that every if you use our trackers because we are 40 50 60% more efficient compared to the ground mounts. Our cost structure shows that every kilowatt hour that we produce costs three cents 3 to 3.2 cents depends on where you are exactly and that that cost includes the initial capex

insurance coverage the uh the maintenance of the system for 20 years and the upgrades needed for 20 years. So if you take for the next 20 years all costs involved to make this work and produce power, it gives you a 3.2 3 to 3.2 cents per kilowatt hour.

Crazy. So any developer who has that cost and has a contract with a utility at 6 cents, you're talking about huge profits. The profit margin is huge, right? Was was there a point where that became true for you guys? like like that that that this whole like the the solar market became mature enough for those

economics to make sense. When did this happen? Yeah. Well, it's a gradual progress. It it didn't happen overnight. You're talking about the last 10 years. 10 years, eight years. We've seen a dramatic drop, okay, in the cost of systems partially because the Chinese managed to produce lowc cost solar modules. Uh, and once I got I

don't want I don't want to be political here, but in reality, the US cannot produce lowcost solar modules. End of the story. So, I don't know why the administration fights that. There's no way that you can make competitive solar modules with the same cost that the Chinese do. So, if I'm going to assume

that that the Chinese will prevail, and they have prevailing so far, right? and using cheap Chinese uh reliable European or American inverters and trackers, you have a mix of a very low cost between a dollar to dollar and a half per watt producing a very low cost of electricity. So right now you have these huge AI data centers

that are coming up. I mean you have those mushrooms coming up different states around the country and in Europe and in China everywhere everybody talks about AI. The AI requirement in the next three, four years will be several gigawatts.

Right. Right. Several gigawatts. I mean each each they're talking about one gigawatt for each AI factory. It might be less. I don't think it's going to be one gigawatt. But even if you have 500 megawatt systems that they need to be put to operation in the next two to three years in multiple AI locations,

whether it's going to be in the US, in Middle East or China or Europe, you need power, tremendous amounts of power. Now the US administration tries to use nuclear as the quick solution of the problem. I don't think it's going to be that way.

Nuclear has its own issues mostly permitting public opposition. Sure. Uh you know there there are factors that they will make nuclear a less effective or a a much slower progress energy source. So solar cannot be a solution of its own because you need lots of land. You need a really large amount of land to build

solar. But I think a combination of solar with wind can fit that gap the energy deficit. U so I still believe that having low cost of energy production the solar can be a major player in the AI evolution. So, so now, so now we have uh you know this this whole we we've

structured the environment that Megatron sits inside of that Michael sits in and you're looking at it and we're looking at the future. What you know we we've talked about um what the uh the the challenges that you face um that Meatron faces as far as uh certain customer segments, you know, the size um uh the

novelty of the technology, let's say. Uh and then also also push back around uh just solar in general, you know, compared to nuclear like you're saying or fossil fuels um just as a base argument. So if it's one of those things and that's fine, but uh one of my last questions for you is what is the biggest

hurdle that you have right now as it pertains to growth of the company and how is it also an opportunity? Well, as I said before, market opposition is a major issue. We still have ways to go to make the market aware and accept that our technology is reliable because to this date so many

years after being in the business and deploying so many projects we are still perceived by a major portion of the market as unreliable but because we are because we are dual access tracker. So that that perception needs to be needs to be changed by education, by edification, by market um spreading spreading the information to the market,

participating in in seminars and conferences and shows and exhibitions. This is what we face and we do this as much as we can. The problem is that to do that you need money, you need investment. So we're like in we're in a pickle right now. What's going to come first, the investment or the growth? So

this is like a pickle that we are fighting every day. Um so market awareness is the big issue. Number two, uh the internal growth because for us to be able to get to the point to manufacture thousands of truckers a year, we need an expansion.

Our facility in Stockton can produce roughly 3,000 truckers a year. Sure. which is a very small amount compared to the the market today needs if I was going to provide trackers for everybody in the market today I would need probably half a million trackers right so making only 3,000 trackers a year which is like 120 megawws if I

compare the if I translate the number of trackers to megawws if I have 120 megawatts capacity today for me to be able to go go after big players I need to have either a second or a third facility or grow the existing one to larger numbers. So that's another capital expenditure that we need to deal with

and we're trying to work out solutions with investors. But yeah, those are the challenges how to grow and how to overcome market perception. I don't know those I mean they're definitely real. They're definitely challenges but they sound like good problems to have. I mean they're problems that companies have when there's an opportunity there and you're

you're you know you're running towards it. So So it's good. So, it's good to hear, I guess. So, my my last thing for you is with all this work to be done, with these challenges, with everything that um you've put into this, what inspires you to keep working on it?

Well, I still have the fire in me about this baby because I still see this as my baby growing together with the company for the last gosh, 16, 17 years. I still see the potential. I have not reached my goal. I I I have certain numbers and certain growth for the company in my head and I'm not there

yet. I haven't reached the level of success that I believe this company deserves. So I keep pushing myself and my team and my people and I'm trying to get better people next to me so we can get at much higher level soon.

But I know that at this point the company has not reached the level of success that it deserves. And that alone is a driving factor in my heart, in my soul to keep pushing to get this company where it deserves to be.

Yes. And you'll get it there. Let's go. Keep pushing it. That's right. Keep pushing. If anyone else was uh inspired to follow along or get in touch, what's the best way to do that? Well, they can they can email to us.

There's they can go to our website, meatron-trackers.com. That's our website, meatron-trackers.com. That's our website. They can reach out to us. We have online forms and uh email access, so they can email to us what they want to find out. Um can I give my well I won't give my phone over the phone but um yeah they can they

can reach out to us using uh online forms on the website and then we can reach out. This is how typically people reach out to us using the online submission to it Michael. My pleasure. It was nice talking to you.

Awesome. Thank you so much. I'm excited. Thanks.