Earth & Water Tech with Sunena Gupta, Associate @ CleanTech Group

Oh, welcome, welcome. Today on the show, we have Sunna Gupta. She is episode four in this beautiful series that I'm doing with Clean Tech uh Clean Tech Group about their global 100 report from the end of last year. Today's episode discusses resources and environmental management.

What is that? seemingly a massive bucket, a massive umbrella that has adaptation. I wrote it down, water, infrastructure, mineral exploration, earth observation. I mean, what are we talking about? How is one person in charge of of reporting on this? This seems like a massive bucket, but well, if you listen long enough in the

episode, uh very organically and naturally, Sana and I uh reach a point of understanding, something that that ties all of these different buckets together, uh that really changed the way that I am able to understand and hopefully you uh this industry of uh resource and environmental management.

So, very excited for you to listen. uh with that framework you're able to better understand the different innovations and and activity happening. So uh yeah very inspired by that conversation. Thank you as always to uh the sponsors Clean Techch Growth Lab. If you're looking to grow in clean techch they're the people to do it with and the

producers of this podcast craze and friends. With that I give you Shinina. Oh, welcome to another episode of The Grove. Shout out to the sponsors mentioned just before we pressed record. Without them, it would not be possible to interview awesome people doing awesome things like Sunana. Welcome.

Thanks so much, Blake, for having me on this. This uh absolutely. This is a special episode number four of our series with Clean Tech Group dissecting their uh end of year uh report. Um yeah, before we get into it, if you could just give a a brief introduction of yourself and what you're building and uh

introduction of uh the global 100. Yeah, for sure. I'm Sana Gupta and so what I do at Clean Tech Group is I'm on the market intelligence team and I'm in our sector called resources and environmental management and so it's a pretty broad group um of kind of technologies and markets that we cover

but the resources side is a lot of um kind of national resources and sustainable use of resources. So that can be water, that can be mineral exploration, it could be things like biodiversity and forestry. Um, and we're looking at the tech in that. And some people are surprised that there's tech to do with forestry and biodiversity,

but there is. Um, and then for the environmental management side of things, it's a lot of monitoring technologies. Um, trying to see a lot of things via Earth observations, satellites, sensors, just monitoring the environment, the Earth, um, anything to do with extreme weather and natural disasters as well.

So, pretty broad, but super interesting stuff. No. Yeah, I was going to say that's a lot of pretty intense areas for you to report on in in a single section. So, um, uh, quick question before we start. How, how did you get into this? Have you always wanted to be, uh, a clean tech

reporter, you know, or did something happen at some point? Yeah, good question. I think I kind of stumbled into it a few years ago. I think growing up I was had almost like no interest if that's okay to say. Um, but I've got him there. Of course. Okay.

I just didn't know a lot um about this space, which is funny cuz my dad has been working in the clean tech space for a really long time, like more from the finance um side of things and renewable energy. And when I was a kid, he would tell me like this is a really cool space

to work in and like try to get these little like kids books about like solar and wind and all of that. And I just didn't really care at that point. Um and then I kind of got into um public policy when I was in college and I was like okay this is really interesting and I

like the impact that kind of came out of that. Um and I was in that for a little bit and then when I went to do my master's program it was a public policy program but they had a pretty big focus on climate and environment and I was like okay this is actually really cool.

There were a lot of really cool speakers and professors. Um and I just kind of kept stumbling deeper deeper and deeper into the topic. um just realizing the intersection between climate tech, environment, sustainability, also healthcare. Um I think I just kept finding it more and more fascinating.

Ended up um at Clean Tech Group and luckily I'm still in a place where I'm like, okay, this is still really fascinating. Always always something new going on here. Well, was it was it always um was it always an interest to be somebody that takes a bunch of information that synthesizes it and reports on it?

Because there's a lot of different ways that you can get involved in in the sector and what you do is pretty specific. So, yeah, I think when I was younger, I was kind of interested in like law and journalism. So I guess in that sense I was always really interested in kind of

reading, writing, dissecting like the key insights and being able to present that in a clear way. Um so that's kind of what drew me into this space. Um I think I wasn't didn't expect to get that involved in kind of the startup scene or maybe just didn't know that much about it. But I think that's what I find

really fascinating, like the amount of innovation that's out there and being able to go and talk to all these people working in this space and then go and tell the rest of this world that this really cool stuff is going on that they should pay attention to.

So, what do you think uh what do you think the the purpose is of storytelling in that way or or writing about it in the way that you do? You know, because there's there's uh different ways you could think about why it matters. um you know but the I guess the most high level

being well it's just exposure it's just press you know like we're saying but what to you what really is the the the importance of the mechanism of research reporting and writing and things like this in clean tech space. Yeah, definitely. I think it's kind of what I was alluding to that there's just so

much going on and and it's no doubt all important, but not all of it is applicable to every single person. Like when we're talking to specific corporates or investors um or any kind of organization, I think a big part of our role is really understanding what their goals are, how they're thinking about it, and then sharing what

information we have. And a lot of that is presenting our own opinions because there's this whole range of information, but there's no value to what we're doing unless we can say this is our opinion on like what's going to win in the space and like what's not worth looking at.

like maybe not always in those words, but um when they're trying to analyze um like what different directions you can go in if there's like 50 startups in a working on a same on the same technology really being able to dig deep and say that okay this is the technology that works for

the economic value for the type of technology it is for the sustainability outcome and I think that's really impactful to be able to do that and deliver that type of information and and it's not just about like people that are already working in the space. For anyone else who's like new to it, I think it's

it's interesting information and it's it it has been changing the way that we operate our day-to-day. Well, with that introduction, why don't we get into uh I think the the section that you know, no offense to anybody that I've spoken to. I mean, these conversations have been unbelievably incredible, but this is a

particular passion of mine. this section uh earth observation and water and and uh resilience adaptation stuff like this. So before we do any of uh the more specific sections how do we understand what this is resources and environmental management what what is it?

Mhm. Yeah. So there's different kind of ways to think about it. So like we call it resources and environmental management. I think a lot of the topics that come under this section is what kind of the buzzwords of adaptation and resilience are. So we're really looking at um what we're really looking at in

that sense is we've pretty much realized that we're not meeting this 1.5 degree goal. So adaptation technologies are the ones that are kind of helping us live with this new type of climate or the changes that we're seeing in weather and natural disasters and climate hazards and resilience is kind of the outcome of

okay this is what we're trying to achieve. So when we're looking at like maybe floods, like adaptation is like technology that can protect our coastlines so that we're not getting flooded in, but resilience is the outcome of kind of being more flood resilient. You're you want to make sure that that's not affecting your

communities. And there's so many spillovers with different types of weather, with healthcare, um with just infrastructure and all of that. So, so if we're talking about resources environmental management, adaptation, I'll just say adaptation because resilience is the the the outcome of adaptation. Adaptation is just one bucket.

Yeah. So, it's kind of Yeah, there's a lot of overlap. Um, so yeah, adaptation resilience is kind of like the big bucket at the moment that we're focusing on. Apart from that, you mentioned water and so water is its own whole thing of its own. Of course, there's water resilience, but then there's things like water

infrastructure, which is really important. And then when we're looking at infrastructure, there's everything to do with kind of making our infrastructure better um or like more resilient to these extreme weather um or natural disasters. And then kind of on the resources side of thing, there's things like mining, but like I would look at more mineral exploration because

that's kind of actually getting out the um resources in a more sustainable way. Okay. So when you say uh Okay. So I have you you said mineral extraction exploration exploration because there is a a whole section but that is like in the report of minerals and materials but the exploration piece if it falls into this

bucket again in this framework and then everything else has to go with materials and chemicals. Um so I have okay so I have resources environmental management like you said there's overlap so this isn't perfect I get that but uh resource environmental management adaptation water infrastructure mineral exploration yeah I think for the most part that's

kind of um that's one way to put it the way we kind of do it at our company is we have this whole taxonomy of like every single type of hazards we'll have a section for wildfire for floods, for storms, for heat, and then we'll also have kind of like different like risk

analytics. We'll have earth observation. There'll be a section on sensors. So, that's kind of how we map it out. But, I think broadly um the way that we're speaking about it is I think generally when I'm speaking to the public and we're like I'm we're writing about things, those are like some of the main

groups that we talk about. Great. All right. Let's run with it then. So, a clarifying question. When you say infrastructure, uh what infrastructure are we talking about? Like typically bridges, roads, buildings. I don't kind of What else is there?

The above. Yeah. Um yeah, bridges, roads, buildings. Um sometimes we would include the grid. I know that's more kind of like energy and power, but like protecting the grid from like natural disasters again would be something I look at um pretty closely.

Okay. Well then uh at this point now that we have this this framework I'm actually curious uh and I know that this is your research area. So this is all of this is interesting to you but is there anything that's uh like something that's very interesting to you or exciting uh from this this report out of these

buckets? Yeah, I think um like at least for the global clean techch 100 report um kind of the way we like to do it is report on the key trends that we see in our sector and I think more and more we're seeing earth observation as really underpinning so many of the other like kind of all

the different sections that we're seeing um in this sector. All right. So then so then earth observation let's do it. Yes. What is it? What are we talking about? Yeah. So good question. Um before I start throwing that word word out um so earth observation it can be satellites or sensors anything that really helps us

to monitor the earth monitor climate monitor like what's happening underground as well um and any changes in that respect. Those are the technologies that we're seeing um that come under earth observation. And there's another part of it. It's not just kind of observation and collecting data. It's also the data analytics and the insights that you get from it. So

it's that whole kind of end to end um I'll give you an example like for wildfire satellites can be a really really strong technology um to see detect wildfires early and to like take action. So you don't want to just see the wildfires. You want to be able to kind of see the changes that they're

making, the progression that they're making, what impact they have. some technologies are going into forecasting and then you want to be able to build um build that into kind of existing workflows where it can alert firefighters or alert um rescue operations um immediately.

So So then so then does this again simply break down into data collection, data analytics? That's often how I talk about it um data acquisition and data analytics. there is um yeah I think that's kind of the simplified way to break it down.

Great. Well, if that's what you talk about and that's how I want to talk about it. That's what we're going to talk about. So So we have so we have data acquisition, data analytics. Um something that I read that I wrote down is this thing called data to insight chain.

Uhhuh. What what is that? Is that literally just saying what we just outlined the acquisition to the analytics chain where you could turn it into like decisions? Yeah. So it's just that like maybe before the data acquisition and data analytics were like two separate categories. I think the market trend that we're seeing is that more and more

they're merging into the same platforms cuz it's not that valuable to just collect a bunch of data and give it to someone. And so a lot of the satellite providers are kind of going the next step to actually just producing the insights inhouse um because they have those capabilities. And then that kind

of works both ways where we have data analytics companies like Live EO is one that very recently went kind of backwards in that chain and launched their own satellites or are planning to launch their own satellites. So more and more we're seeing that kind of end to end integration and that kind of serves

as like a one-stop shop for anyone who needs to use that um data where it's collected and presented and the insights are given to them in the way that they need it. So is is that what a company needs to be in order to be successful in this space is vertically integrated?

I think so. um not that they can't be successful otherwise but I think the market trend is going in that direction. So if you're not providing it, what we're seeing is that a lot of companies will there's a lot of acquisitions in this space which isn't that common um in the market um at the moment or at least

in the last years we haven't seen kind of specific technologies that have a ton of acquisitions but here you want to kind of be able to provide that end to end and I think if you're providing raw data you're not going to be getting very far in the market um if you're not going

that next step step and actually providing insights and insights that are very tailored to that end user. Okay. So other than uh either companies investing in vertically integrating uh like you're saying that that analytics company launching satellites or companies acquiring other companies in order to uh be a full service. What else? Uh what like where are these uh

where where are the use cases that that we're seeing this happening? Mhm. Yeah, there's so many. Um so I mentioned wildfires is one. So there's companies like ISI which are monitoring um wildfires is Aurora Tech which is a whole different type of satellites um which can detect heat and they're also for wildfires um for flood monitoring as

well. It kind of works the same way when we're talking about mining. So it's not just like natural hazards, but for mining, um there's like hyperspectral satellites and sensors which can see what's underground which without actually having to go and dig and extract. Um so that just saves resources. It gives you a better idea of

what's actually underneath without you having to go um and do that kind of operation. Um there's really good use cases for agriculture, for water. There's this company Hydraat that kind of works at that in integration. Um and then when we're talking about sorry what about water like just monitoring changes or like for

the for this company for example for hydroat um they have a use case which they started off with which was for agriculture. So, kind of being able to detect changes in land. Um, and so when you're trying to look at crops and what that how much water you need, that's where some of these technologies come

in, especially when you're looking at sensors. So, it's not just satellites, there's also sensors which can be kind of really localized and really decentralized into different areas. So whether that's farms or whether that's forests or on the grid that can sense really really small changes um in climate or in how how much water there

is or how many minerals there are and things like that. So, so, so um again though, so a lot of this are it sounds like a lot of the activity in this space goes around uh I mean we haven't talked a ton about the analytic side or or or the the tailoring to the the end use

case but like the the data the data acquisition side is that mainly hardwired driven? Yeah, pretty much. So wi so within that question I I think this this is um uh more related to to to what I wanted to get at with the the vertical integration but how else are companies uh innovating

in this like how what what other uh advances are being made that are differentiating companies from other ones that that are making them uh better competitors for these different use cases. Yeah, I think there's kind of there's like three overall trends that I'm seeing and it's not that like one company is doing it a specific way, but

kind of just overall in that like satellite or earth observation space. So, one really cool thing that's come about is small sats. And so satellites when we think of them a few years ago, they were really really expensive. Like decades ago, they were kind of unimaginable to use for commercial use cases. They're they were more kind of a

of a defense technology. Um but now with small sats, they're kind of making data faster to process. They're cheaper. They're more usable. Um so we're seeing companies kind of use different variety of satellites. And then similar with like sensor types as well. We're looking at like hyperspectral which is really good at like detecting what's

underground like what I said for um mining. And then there's like thermal sensors which can detect heat and can detect fire. And if you're able to detect that from space like you can do a lot with that information. you can check wildfire risk. You can monitor heat in different places and like that's really

useful for urban heat island monitoring. And so those are really exciting kind of like varieties in that. And then I think the last one which I personally find really cool and I think is kind of like really disruptive to the industry is edge computing. And so that means that these satellites can process data on

board. So when they acquire the data, they process the data on board and then it gets sent down um as insights rather than just like raw imagery. And so that really matters because in a disaster scenario for example, speed is everything. Like if there's a wildfire, there's a flood, you don't just need raw

imagery. You need those decisions made really fast or those like insights given to you really fast. And that kind of difference in minutes that you get can be super crucial um when for those specific use cases. Who's who's who's pushing that? I how popular is is that application?

Yeah, I think it's becoming more widespread kind of all three of those trends. Um the kind of satellite and sensor types obviously you pick one way or the other, but when it look goes to edge computing, I think that's going to be something that's kind of widespread.

They'll probably become table stakes in um a few years. Is it Can I write that down as a hot take of yours? Does that count as a hot take? Yeah. Okay. Um so Okay. So we talked about so satellite variety is something that's differentiating companies like companies just using different kinds of satellites

or are they developing the technologies themselves? like are they developing like new satellites themselves or just acquiring and deploying certain kinds in a novel way? Yeah. So, it's more of different satellites being used for different reasons. And so, again, kind of like going back to like the flood and wildfire example, the really common

satellite type was this type called SAR, which is synthetic aperture radar. And that's really great cuz you can like use it at night. it can see through clouds and that was kind of the norm when we were looking at um satellites for this type of monitoring. But now there's companies like that are doing thermal

infrared which has a whole different kind of set of benefits. Um or when we're looking at kind of hyperspectral. So it's not like one company is doing different types of satellites is that there's new companies doing kind of like there'll be a company doing hyperspectral there'll be a company doing thermal there'll be company doing

SAR but there's just a lot more variety and they tailor really well to different use cases. Okay each other's gaps. Yes. Right. So that was my next question was I have written down here wildfire, flood, mining, a water as just some of the the end use cases. Are these technologies applicable across different use cases or

are there technologies that fit these use cases best? Yeah, I would say there's some that are working better in my opinion um for each of these use cases. I think like for mining, hyperspectral is a really strong one. Um I think for floods, SAR imagery can be really strong. For wildfires, it can kind of be a mix. Um

and yeah, so it kind of goes they like like I said, like they kind of address each other as gaps and it really depends on what you're trying to observe. if you're trying to detect something super early or if you're trying to just monitor its progression or you're trying to later see the damage

that it causes. Interesting. And and those kind of fall under this Wow. Well, that that seems very different like the the cuz if if a if a company's developing um you know a technology and they're saying, "Hey, we'll we'll observe and collect really high quality data and get back to you so that you can you know have high quality

insights for whatever." and it's we're just creating the high quality data for you versus hey, we're a company that's going to help you in a crisis. Those seem like very different companies, but are the same companies getting involved in both types of spaces?

Yeah, I I don't really think there's that much of a market for companies that are just providing raw data because it's especially when we're looking at these use cases. If someone can go and go to a company that can give them the data with the insights for exactly what they're looking for there, there's not really

much of a use case for them to then go and say, "No, we just want raw data and we want to analyze it ourselves." Sure, that could be a thing, but I think for the majority, um that's kind of like the evolution of what we're seeing with data science and AI that you're getting more

and more tailored and niche in that um in those spaces. Okay. Um, anything else as far as Earth observation goes that that you want to touch? Because honestly for me that was extremely educational, very interesting, but you know, as far as your perspective, is there anything else happening that's interesting to talk about? Again, one of my favorites is

water. So, I want to know what what that means to you. How do we understand water? How do you talk about it? How do you think about it? Yeah. So, when we're looking at water, are you asking like specifically within the Earth observation lens or just generally when we're looking at water?

Well, I guess both. So, what so a diagram that I have here is resources and environmental management. We have different buckets. Earth observation is one of them and water is one of them. Like we said, there's overlap, but uh I guess you know outside of the earth observation bucket like how do you think

about water? How what is the market of water? Mhm. Yeah. So again, there's kind of like mini buckets under that which like when we're looking at water, then we look at portable water. And so those technologies will be things that kind of get us clean drinking water. Um so like different types of desalination

technologies or membranes. Um and then there's water monitoring. So there's this whole thing of kind of smart or digital water. um which is again kind of like sensors that are really like localized and decentralized that can monitor kind of how clean water is or changes in water. Um and all those different types of aspects that you want

to know when you're kind of evaluating like water quality. Um and then there's waste water which is kind of like a whole different thing and we usually include under kind of our waste and recycling segment. Um, and yeah, those are kind of just some examples as well, but I would kind of broadly put it into

monitoring portable water, waste water. Uh, yeah. So, what so what's what's a what's the main focus in this space? Like what what's the activity that's happening? What are people talking about? Yeah. So, desalination um is a big one in terms of there's all these technologies coming up. Um and we have we actually had I think a record number

of innovators um on our global clean top 100 list. I think there were eight or maybe even nine. Um so every year we're seeing more and more water innovators and a lot of them are to do with kind of industrial water use cases. And so uh especially with more and more industries get like he looking at heavy industries.

So we're looking at mining or data centers or semiconductor industries. There's a whole kind of part of that's really critical to water use. So, being able to reuse water, being able to treat water, being able to kind of get clean water as well. That's kind of what I'm looking at in my space. Um, but yeah,

definitely a trend that I love to see coming when we're seeing more represent representation on our list. We're seeing a lot of really interesting kind of capital and financing mechanisms to make these technologies more economical or marketable. Um, and it's it's always really interesting to talk to water innovators because it's not as

straightforward as the other ways in terms of like, oh, this is like a profitable or investable technology. They are, but that's kind of not always the way that um they're able to be representative because water is kind of like a common everyday gun.

But that but that's what makes it so interesting. I just had a conversation with um this this guy John Robinson who invests uh in in water specifically. He's based in the UK and he was saying that uh basically exactly what you're saying. He said it's hard to get people excited about it because people know

water. He was saying you know people know water and people don't know water like in the ways that you're talking about or the ways that we're speaking about but it's a familiar thing and so people are like what do you mean you know water industry water tech you know what does that mean to to speak on the

uh the water quality thing that that um that you just mentioned you said uh monitoring is a is a big space. So what does that even mean? Are we talking about like people being able to monitor? Are we talking industry? I don't even know where else, you know, like what like what are we talking we say water

monitoring? Yeah, people, industry, it's also like cities. So, um I'll give you an example from Chicago. So, we have the Chicago River and I think last year they came up with this project um where they have sensors that can detect the water quality. And so that's kind of what we include in monitoring. Um like changes

to pH levels or changes in kind of um what chemicals are in that water. And it kind of tells you like whether how clean it is, what it can be used for, what treatments it can undergo. And so it's kind of the base layer for a lot of um technologies. Just being able to

actually tell what compounds are in that water. um that can tell you a lot about what you can do with it and what it can be used for. are are are the innovations in that space having to do with uh like breakthrough technologies in the the ability to monitor water or like more

specific data acquisition or is it more so I guess like we were talking about with with Earth observation uh space is it more so being able to take uh traditional data collection methods and be able to draw higher quality insights from them yeah very similar trends I think whenever we're talking about sensors um

it's the same kind of thing where like sensors are just getting better and better and that's just kind of like a technology trend. But what it means in the market is that the actual insights and what you can do with that information and also the speed at which you're getting that information um is

really valuable. So, it's not just like you're getting better information, but if you can get that that really interesting or useful information within like a couple minutes or an hour versus like getting it next week, you can that can make the world of a difference.

So, this this general um this general theme uh I I know we put it into a bucket, but I feel like it's it's it's tough to put into its own space is this idea of uh adaptation. So, can you I I think it's important to understand that resilience is an outcome of adaptation. But how do we understand?

How about this? Is there an adaptation industry? Is that even a right way to think about it? If not, how do we think about it? Yeah, I think I see it more as a market. Um, so all these adaptation technologies are kind of forming their own market.

Um, yeah, that's kind of the language I guess that I usually use. Does does does Earth observation, water monitoring, like are these are these versions of this uh of um solutions or businesses that that that operate in this adaptation market or is there something uh something else that defines it?

Yeah, definitely. So, I think kind of the way that we like to talk about it at Clean Tech Group and like how I think about it is when we're thinking about adaptation, you're thinking about that 1.5 degree goal that we had. And if you're not meeting it, what are kind of the technologies, um, segments, markets,

whatever you want to call it, that are coming up to make our world more unlivable. And so that definitely includes earth observation because there's more extreme climate events going on. There's more extreme natural disasters going on. And so you need kind of better earth observation technologies to be able to detect that, monitor that,

and like help us live with it. And we're talking about water and that because water resilience is kind of a whole thing um thing with that as well. And we're talking about just anything to do with weather. So weather forecasting technologies would come under that. um as well to kind of again similar to do

what weather forecasting. Yeah, forecasting. Uh does that mean some Okay, so I mean the reason I asked that is because weather forecasting to me immediately thinks like weather station, weather person just telling you the weather. Is it is it innovations there? Like what what do we mean?

Yeah, surprisingly there is. Um, so weather is kind of a it's a really interesting space that I've spent the last few months kind of looking into. So obviously you can check the weather on your phone and like for us day-to-day use, you want to know if it's raining or snowing or whatever. But when you're

thinking about it on an industrial level, you're thinking about okay, you need to um some of these kind of like logistics companies, aviation companies, all of that, they're dealing with more unpredictable weather every year. And so these technologies come in and they're kind of not just answering the question as like is it going to rain tomorrow?

They're answering the question of it's going to rain, it's going to rain this much and this is how it's going to impact each of your assets and this is how you're going to have to change your decisions. So you're going so many steps further.

And so when you're looking at a massive logistics or supply chain company, it can be really valuable for them to kind of change their operations and know that in advance how they need to make changes to what they're doing and to protect their assets.

A little a little bit of a wild card question, I guess, is that when I would think about who needs that uh who needs that economically speaking, who needs that information? I mean it is people that own a lot of assets, you know, potentially huge uh, you know, a lot of real estate, things like that, but

insurance companies. So, how much does like do you guys I mean, I don't think you spoke about it in the report, but I'm just curious how much does that come up as far as like the insurance industry or like the role that insurance plays as far as a demand driver for some of these

for some of these markets? Yeah, you absolutely said it the right way. Um, insurance is a really really strong demand driver for a lot of these technologies almost to the extent where it kind of has been the backbone for a lot of these adaptation techs and actually bringing them to market helping them scale because they're putting in

all of these mandates and policies to make sure that infrastructure for example can meet their claims. And so then there's a whole market where infrastructure companies are like, "Okay, we need to make our buildings kind of wildfire proof or floodproof or whatever that might be." Um, and and same with kind of weather

forecasting. Um, it can be really useful for insurance providers to get that information and be able to there's this whole world of parametric insurance that opens up as well. Um, so again, so many kind of like interlinks, but I would Yeah, really. This is so this is so fun.

Insurance companies are as such a driver of a lot of these technologies. Um why why okay this might just be my perspective. uh I just came into the world of adaptation and stuff like as of you know a few months ago I didn't really I mean you know I had discussed uh you know

like studied geology had understood um like infrastructure and like big scale like weather patterns and and disasters and things like this but I didn't really have the vocabulary to understand it as a market or that people were in the adaptation industry or resilience whatever so um Was 2025 a year where it became like it

it it uh it entered the mainstream thought like why 2025 why not any of these years beforehand? Yeah. So we started looking at adaptation resilience as like its own segment several years ago, maybe four or five years ago. But I think last year is really when things um changed and we like for example with clients or members

um of clean tech group, we suddenly started getting a lot of requests to talk about adaptation resilience and a lot of those conversations start off with just trying to understand what they are. like a lot of the conversation that we're having now just understanding what are the technologies what does it mean is it investable like what does it mean

for them and like what's applicable to them and so there's suddenly just a lot more thought in this space and I think again it goes back to that realization that okay we can't just focus on mitigation technologies because we're not meeting that 1.5 goals you absolutely need those technologies but that's not the only thing now we need to

start thinking seriously about adapting to these changing climate effects And so there's just kind of a widespread shift that's happened um in the last year um really and more so in the last 6 months and I think like at our clean tech forum for example there was just so much more of an emphasis on that um and so much of

the conversation was just based around like okay we need to start talking about this and we need to start acting on this right now. But you think there's a specific reason or it's just a buildup of uh you know a few years like was it was is 2025 like some type of threshold

where it was like if you know we just know for a fact that we're just not going back or was it this administration you know being uh voted in in in one of the largest countries in the world.

I think it's more of a buildup to be honest. Um, great. And I, and I think it's also like, okay, if you started thinking about it a few years ago, last year, maybe you're starting to realize that, okay, there's evidence that this is a profitable market and it's something really impactful. So, we're not just thinking about, okay, for

the good of the world, we should talk about adaptation, but these technologies can do really well. And I think one use case that I kind of keep coming back to, but wildfires, I think there's been so much focus on wildfires over the past few years, like the wildfires in LA, for example, that happened last year. There

was so much of a focus um on it. And it's kind of a sad reason why this has come to light, but because there is they're so destructive destructive. They're happening more frequently. They're happening like around around the whole year, like in every season. it's limited to something.

But with that, what you're also seeing is that there's technologies that are really, really good at predicting wildfires and detecting them, at like minimizing the destructiveness that they have. And so if you apply that same thing to like different types of um weather hazards, you realize that okay, there are really really good

technologies and it's worth investing in them and it's worth paying attention to them. Not that wildfires are the only reason, but I do think them happening and them happening in LA has had a big reason why that kind of thought shift has come.

Got it. Huge. Thank you for that. Um, moving into this in into this next uh this next bucket. I think this is uh our last bucket here. There's a theme that you spoke to and this idea of mineral exploration also centers around it. Tell me if I'm wrong but I'm just putting this together

now. This also centers around the quality of sensors the utilization of sensors the uh colle the acquisition of data and the analysis of data. So at the beginning before we entered this conversation it seems like a big huge bucket uh resource and environmental management but it is it accurate to say that sensing sensing and sensors and

data analytics like that is a through line between all these buckets. Yeah, pretty much. I think now that I'm thinking of our tax on me, um, yeah, sensing to insights is kind of a good way to like this is what's running through the the whole sector.

Okay. Well, based on that, after this next section, I have I have a question. So, I want to I want to understand mineral exploration. I was told uh a se I'll keep it seeer who told me it was somebody that works with you but they said that you're extremely knowledgeable about what's happening with mineral

exploration. So what are the technologies happening here? What is it? Why is it important? Yeah. So, a lot of what I focused on last year was um AI and mining. And it's not it's not just AI. It kind of goes into other digital tools. But when we're looking at mineral exploration, so I

think everyone knows that like the rate at which our demand for minerals and like really critical minerals is going up. there's just more data centers, more electronics, just tech boom, all of that um is just causing a need for or that demand has kind of surged exponentially in the last few years. And so then the

issue that you have is that okay, well, we need the supply to kind of bring that in. Um and so with the supply is I guess to put it simply, it's like you need to figure out where the minerals are that you need and like where the deposits are. And it's also a matter of doing it

kind of in a sustainable manner. So you don't want to just go and kind of be like, okay, I think that this is these minerals are going to be here and dig it up. There's a lot of technology that goes into that. And so again, it kind of goes into there's massive amounts of

mining data sets which like big mining companies have about data that they've collected from mines and from different grounds, but you're being able to now analyze them better with AI. you're being able to sense and verify it better with hyperspectral sidewise that I said there's this whole world of quantum sensing that's coming about which is

super super new but what is that yeah that's brand new like different dimensions of sensing like this little quantum gravity meter is what can detect really really minor changes in the ground and like in earth so again we're coming back to the theme of sensing and then pulling the data and then using the data for something

valuable. What's that called? Quantum what? Gravimemeters or quantum sensors is kind of the um gravimeter main term. Um does that does that like does that produce Okay. So with each of these different types of technologies that gather that sense and gather data in different ways, how different is the data that they collect and is a layer of

innovation in the space around building new technologies or ways to be able to synthesize that data. Yeah. So when you're talking about being able to synthesize that data that's coming about with progressions and AI, ML, all those fun buzzwords that we hear, they're really, really useful in this case because whatever data you

have, just being able to kind of analyze it better, analyze it more quickly, it all kind of comes down to that. And that's useful for miners as well because you're saving resources that you can use when you have less information. you might go and try to extract where it's not that valuable for you to extract. So, it's just

leading to more resource efficiency in that way. Um, and the whole mining industry is going through this thing where they have kind of um a talent gap because a lot of the people that were traditionally miners now that they're kind of being trained for this data type of role, they can go work at a big tech

company. They're not necessarily going into mining. Whoa. That's yeah. So there's all these like big dynamics that are going on in the mining industry that's really building a need for these technologies and and I think you already know but when we do our research we speak to a lot of these companies we speak to like these big

mining majors you speak to these innovators and they all kind of say the same few things that this demand is coming from this way and a lot of their technologies are it's not just about like better AI or better sensing. it's kind of being able to use it and get creative and like where it can be used

within this industry. So where uh where in the world are these technologies like as far as mining goes? Um I believe from our conversation yesterday there's you know um I forget what we were talking about some one of the rare earths but you know a lot of mining activity in Chile a lot in the

Dr. Congo, Zambia, I mean elsewhere. But I'm just thinking like where are the deployments of these types of technologies happening? Yeah. So kind of what you said um there's pretty big testing grounds or use cases in Australia and Canada and Indonesia I believe. Um so it is a pretty global technology. Um, but I

think kind of one of the challenges that innovators face is that what happens in the mining industry is that they're kind of notoriously known as not wanting to be the first person to use a new technology. So, they're not like nobody wants to like bet on like there's this cool new technology, let me be the first

one. You wouldn't be the fourth or fifth or sixth person um one person company to kind of try it. And that's just like industry inertia. And then it's it doesn't just stop at that. It's also like they kind of want to know like this technology is going to work at my specific mind in

these specific environments. So there's all those kind of layers that innovators have to prove before their technologies can actually take off and and they are doing it there. There's really great examples um and a lot of like pilot programs come in um which can be really valuable in that um in helping them

prove that. Okay. So, last thing I want to ask you about is that uh cuz I'm really I I'm kind of excited. I mean, this this thing is like uh I feel like we discovered something together. I mean, it's something that you knew, but it's something that I feel like I'm just is this this through line about sensing

and how how it's uh it really ties cuz like I said, I just can't like it's crazy how far apart how broad this book seemed, but the the deeper we get into it, it really is like sensing is everywhere and then making sense.

of that data is everywhere. Yeah. And uh and so within that could we just go over um one more time like and as as as u I have a follow-up question. So just what are the main sensing technologies to be on the lookout for? So I have SAR sat uh satellite uh hyperspectral sensing thermal

sensing. Edge computing isn't really a sensor type, right? That's more Yeah, that's more of like the future. Uh quantum gravimetrics. Gravimeters. Yeah. Gravimeters. Quantum sensor. Sensors. Um yeah, I feel like that's not one you can quiz me on.

It's so new. Um that's okay. That's how I So, so thinking about this though, like is hyperspectral specific enough or or does that even break down further? like how to you know yeah at least the way we look about it that's kind of the the layer that I've been going to I'm sure it goes deeper than that people

that are actually building these things that's right so then so then I'll say for right now I've sar satellite I've hyperspectral thermal are there any other tech uh innovations and sensing that that excite you that are worth noting right now yeah I think we put in another category called it's called insitu sensors which

are so right now we're talking about satellites um but there's this really cool company Driad um which is at least it started off as a wildfire company and they have these little sensors in the forest um which can detect like smoke um and they can detect wildfires like at an ultra early rate and and when we're

talking about insitu sensors it's again since you're interested in water there's um these like instant 2 sensors are like really really localized or decentralized sensors that can be put into like different types of environments and they can detect or sense different types of things. So think of that more as like a hyper localized type of sensor rather

than like those satellites that will just be able to observe a big um area or space. What's a use case like that? Like a wastewater facility. Yeah. Or like that river um example that I gave you. any kind of like water body um or industrial use case.

Okay. Or agriculture as well. Okay. So between these four um Okay. Well then are there different on the other side of it data analytics are there are are there also um uh categories to to put it in like can that even be understood in that way?

Yeah. Well, like a little while ago when we monitor, right, we break it up into these are the AI analytics and these are the nonAI analytics, but now I'm kind of was kind of seeing that if you're not incorporating AI, I don't think you have as strong of a business. So, that's kind

of one category. I think the way to break it down is that there's different types of models um or AI methods or data science methods like like within this space uh within any of these buckets. I wrote down some uh companies that you mentioned in the report, but I'm curious if you have any

that you're specifically excited about. Yeah. So, so I I was kind of um beginning to talk about dryad. I think that's a really cool one. It's kind of one of those that disrupts the industry in a way because so I know till now I've been talking about okay you sense data in different

ways, you observe data in different ways and you go to insights. There is also kind of another way to think about it. So you can sense the data. So when it's with wildfires, you're sensing smoke, you can detect that, okay, there is a wildfire forming here, you go send out the alerts. The next step that you see

is that autonomous suppression. So you're stacking solutions. So it's not just detection, you're also adding in suppression technologies. So you detect the wildfire, then these drones autonomously come and put out the wildfire. So, you're saving resources for firefighters who can go use those resources for other things.

You're also just minimizing kind of the destruction and and the way that they have to kind of deal with these emergencies. So, companies are going as far as making the decisions of what's best and then deploying or acting on that decision.

Uhhuh. Cuz I guess I I mean that surprises me, but like should it surprise me because I feel like it I guess it's just it comes up to somebody making the decision at some point anyway. So I guess delegating it to this to these companies makes sense.

Yeah. And these technologies are tested in so many environments in so many ways that their accuracy levels are really really high and their decision-m capabilities just keep improving. And that's kind of I think like maybe it's surprising now but I can imagine in a few years you'll be like yeah that's the norm and when we're kind of speaking

about this companies are going to be doing detection to suppression. There's going to be forecasting put into it. I think that's what I kind of find really cool about working in this market is that the level of creativity or innovation is just always moving. Like just being able to detect a wildfire early like a few

years ago that was groundbreaking. Yeah. Now you're like, "Okay, to be groundbreaking, you need to put out the Wi-Fi." Crazy. Yeah. Wow. Um, so, um, just two, you know, um, lighter, you know, not as whatever deep questions for you, subjective questions, I guess I would say. Is there is there something, uh, is there something that

you believe or a direction, a trend that you see happening that, uh, a lot of other people don't believe in? Um, yeah. I'm not sure if it's something that other people don't believe in. I think it's more of the what I see as like a really defining trend is solution stacking. So what you just mentioned,

yeah, you're not just looking at one solution. It's kind of the basis of a lot of our conversation. You're not just doing one thing. You're kind of trying to go end to end as much as you can. And then is there are there any trends that are popular that um that you don't

think should be as popular as they are? That's a good one. Um so I think a lot of the time the focus of the conversation is like oh there's this like cool new AI and like especially like mining is a great example of that.

like there's so many companies that are coming out with like oh I our AI is like the best at this and are the best at this and there's a lot of kind of big claims going out um out there but I think I almost think of it as like having a strong kind of AI model is in

like table stakes like that's kind of your base layer if you don't have that I don't think you have a business like at the end of this year so beyond AI what are you doing like do you have a really cool or unique sensing technology where you're getting data that another company can't get and then you have something

really interesting because you have this data that other companies are not able to get with their technology. So you can build this insight which they can't do your AI model. I think we're getting to a point where all companies are kind of being able to get really good analysis of data. I think what's more unique is

what data you're getting and how you're collecting it. H. So it's more like, "Yo, you got AI?" Like, "Yeah, I got AI." Like, "So what?" Yeah. So then what? Yeah. Exactly. It's like, "Okay, well, everyone has that now." Like two years ago, that was cool. But it's not cool anymore. You're not cool.

Okay. That was cool. That's Yeah. Next year to really stand out, there needs to be something more. All right. Well, I have uh I mean, this is just this feels, you know, like a never- ending conversation. There's just uh I I have so many more questions than I started out with, which I think is a

always a good thing and it uh it calls for uh future conversations. Yeah. So, but at least for today, um you know, just what again I mean really started out with this. It it seemed like a broad space. it the uh the conversation that we had brought a lot of these things together really helped me understand um

you know how you look at this and what the interesting things are. I'm glad you shared uh some of your takes as well. Um oh uh I forgot to ask is there is there a take that you have that your um that your colleagues disagree with?

Oh that's a good one. Um I I feel like I'm like maybe I don't know. That's all right. I I will say Zayanb said you guys uh all disagree. Well, you agree that you know um the AI you know like will be widespread adopted but you disagree on the timelines.

Yeah. I think that's kind of result of we're all monitoring different markets and technologies. Um, yeah. And so we'll have if you ask that same question to each of us, it might might be different. Oh, it I mean it sounds like it's happening quickly in this in this space.

So, uh, my last my last question for you is, uh, just in general, I mean do a lot of work. This is, uh, all all really, um, you work really hard to put this together. It's really important stuff.

Overall, what inspires you? Yeah, that's a good one. Um, I think I'm just constantly working with really, really creative and smart people. So, when we're talking to innovators, as I said, like like they just go beyond what you can think of and them just having so much passion about their technologies and really really impactful

technologies. I just I love speaking to these founders and these innovators. Um, when you're speaking to like investors and corporates, like they're really trying to do something impactful and like learn about these technologies. And then when we're looking at just tech group in general, I mean, you've spoken to all of us now, so maybe you can vouch

for it better than I can, but they're just really smart and passionate people. And I think that's kind of just what the whole industry seems to be. People just trying to make an impact, trying to learn together and get really creative and innovative about the solutions that we can come up with and talk about and

build kind of as a community. Well, I I do second that. I do agree. You're absolutely one of them. This has been such a wonderful conversation. Sena, thank you. Um, if anyone else was inspired to get in contact or follow along, what's the best way to do that?

Yeah, LinkedIn is one way on our clean tech group LinkedIn page. I love talking to people as well about any and all of this. Um, so reaching out on LinkedIn. We do have a research atcle techch group um research.com email as well, which is the best way to kind of find out a

little bit deeper about what we're um talking and learning about. Beautiful. Do it. Highly recommend. That's very similar to what I did. And look what happened. Cool. Well, thank you so much. I'm excited for the next conversation. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me.

You got it.