Turning Waste into Value with Mo Balapour, CEO & Co-Founder @ SusMaX

Oh, welcome to the Grove. Shout out to our partners, Crazy and Friends. If you're looking to grow in any industry, Clean Tech Growth Lab, if you're looking to grow in clean tech, without them, it would not be possible to interview awesome people doing awesome things like Mo, welcome.

Oh, thank you. Yeah, this is I'm so excited that we're doing this in person. Yeah. So excited that you said uh yes to the episode. Of course. Uh we met probably six months ago once. Yeah. And uh I saw you guys pitch about what uh Susmax is doing and I think it's really awesome and I'm excited to get

into it and the story. But before we get going, if you could give a brief introduction of yourself and what you're building. Sure. Uh so I'm Mo Balapur. I'm the CEO and co-founder of Susmax. Uh at Susmax, we're working with uh legacy utilities uh coal power plants basically to recycle their waste product into

construction aggregate. So how long you've been doing that? I've been at SUSMAX for about started back in we formed the company in 2020 but uh we really got started in 2021. So about four four and a half years now.

Four. And have you been in the Philly area the whole time? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've been living in affiliate for the past eight, nine years. Yeah. Nice. So, so before we get into um what Susmax does, what it's been like to build a company?

Yeah. Over the last four or five years, I'm curious about you specifically. Is this your is this the first company that you started or have you started others? This is the my first company. uh uh I I I didn't have any experience of entre uh entrepreneurship before SASMAX and uh this was just basically what I

was doing at Drexel for my PhD and we kind of did a market research and figured out there is some opportunity out there and that's how I kind of became interested more and and we founded a company. Was it a dream of yours from uh childhood to start a business? Had you ever imagined that you

were going to start a business? No, I did not. Uh so my dad is sort of an entrepreneur. He has his own small business. Uh I didn't think of it as entrepreneurship. I just was exposed to it, I think. But I never thought about having my own company. Uh I think when I

was like 14 with my brother we tried to build [snorts] a website for reviewing games [laughter] uh computer games that didn't go anywhere but uh I think that was the closest I came to uh having a company or some something like that. So then so then at the point so you said uh you

went into your PhD and uh I guess at some point in your research you were motivated to do market research and then you found that there was an opportunity. So before that opportunity presented itself did you have a specific reason you were doing PhD?

Oh yeah. So I was interested in being a professor. So that's why after my masters I was like I want to do research, I want to do PhD and then I want to become a professor. Uh but two years into it I figured out that's not what I'm interested in.

Okay. Uh and then this this uh whole project that I was working on, we were lucky enough to kind of get small grant from National Science Foundation to do market research, customer discovery, talking to people and I figured out that's kind of what I'm interested in and that's how I thought about pursuing assessment. So

talk so talk more about the process of being in a PhD, doing this research, having this having this idea that uh you want to become a professor and coming in contact with this opportunity to start a business and the process of of identifying that this is something that you want to jump into because

entrepreneurship is one of the riskiest uh most unstable things that you could do. Yeah. [laughter] And so it's a very specific decision to make. And so I'm curious um uh you know while you were doing your research, what did you think entrepreneurship was going to be? Uh did you feel like you had the resources

around you? That that's a great question. Uh I think I didn't know much about entrepreneurship and my thought process to get to the point to say oh I want to build a company uh might have been a little bit different than other people.

So after I finished my PhD, I was about to finish my PhD. I was faced with two decisions like either go find a job or form suspects and and and start pursuing commercializing what I was working on. Uh I've had the experience of working for other people. I figured out that's not what I'm interested in. And taking risk

at that time was not it wasn't a huge risk for me. I was when I uh started sismax I was probably 20 28 27 28 and then I didn't have much money I didn't have anything so it wasn't like oh there's a huge risk uh going into suspects and uh I thought it's going to be a fun process uh that's

how I decided to uh go about it u other people might think about it and come about it differently and and do a lot of research figure out if it's something that they want to do. There wasn't much decision making and thinking and researching and those kind of thing about it. Uh I just figured out this is

something I'm interested in just want to give it a give it a try and that's how it started. So So then uh would you be able to talk about what the research was that you were doing specifically? So were you on the same research uh project through uh all your four years? Was it at some

point that you got put on this research team that then turned into what SUSMAX is? So, uh, yeah, talk about the research. Uh, so when I joined Drexil back in 2017, they were already working on the idea. Uh, so they had a research grant to see how they can recycle lowquality ash to bypro. So, just going back to uh,

what is this ash I'm talking about? like coal power plants in the past and even now some of them uh that are still in operation when they want to generate electricity they burn coal that generate heat and and and uh that goes through the process to uh generate electricity.

The byproduct of that coal burning is ash leftover ash uh if it's good quality ash it usually goes into concrete. If it's not it goes into the landfill. So Drexel University was working on recycling this lowquality ash into aggregate that can be used for concrete application. So when I joined they were already working on that and that was my

research project. That was the project that I was assigned to. Uh fun story I I thought I'm going to work on a different project. My professor said oh you're going to work on uh pavement concrete or whatever it was. And then I joined Rexel and my project was something else. Uh but that's that's how I got thrown into

it. So, so, so when you're talking about doing research uh related to this ash, what is it that the research is it is it about uh how you know just just coming up with ideas of how to uh utilize this ash? Are we talking about like the chemical properties, physical properties, economic properties like what type of

research? So yeah like deep research about uh the physical properties of that aggregate that that ash chemical properties of it uh how those affect the process to recycle that material uh what should be the process to recycle that material what is the process parameters all these thing all these things need like deep research to understand uh the

fundamentals and then be able to uh develop a process to recycle that material. So, we made it to uh so so I appreciate the context around personally where you were at. Yeah. Uh when the opportunity presented itself and a little bit of context into what the research you were doing, what was the point in the research that um

motivated you to do the market research and what was it that you found in the market research? Sure. Uh so in terms of the motivation part of it, uh I wasn't motivated at at the time. I was just like heads down doing research just getting down my PhD.

PhD is tough. Uh but my professor got this grant that oh you can't do market research about what you're developing in the lab. Uh and I got involved in that. So it was just team of uh four of us. I think it was my professor, another student, myself and and we had uh an

industrial mentor. Uh so we went out and talked to concrete industry uh people that usually uh buy lightweight aggregate to produce lightweight concrete or uh different applications. We interviewed them asked them uh where do they get their lightweight aggregate uh what they do what they use it for uh what are the challenges

uh and so many other things. So what we figured out is uh light vidag is kind of a specialty product the final product that we are working on and they need to buy from far distances to get the material into their facility and produce concrete with it. Uh we figured out there's a problem with lightweight

aggregate supply chain and uh at the same time we figured out there's a problem with this uh waste ash that cannot be recycled. Uh so these two problems were the ones that motivated us uh to take it to the next step think about how we can commercialize it develop the process scale it up and and

uh try to bring it to market. How did you reach these these concrete companies? Was it cold outreach? Was it through your network? Uh some through network uh some through just walking in talking to people showing up and talking to them. uh and some just through cold email, cold call uh to just ask for my my my trick was

always like oh I want to talk to you for about 5 10 minutes and uh just want to ask a couple of questions about concrete light concrete and then they would give you about 20 30 minutes of their time.

Was there uh was there a critical mass of data that you were looking for to to validate this idea or this hypothesis that there was a need? Uh yes, I think we were interest what what we kept hearing from these ready mixers that it's really expensive to transport the material. Some of them had

a problem with uh using the material in concrete because of the pumpability issues and other things. Uh so when we kept hearing this problem we figured out oh there is something there. Uh and that wasn't just limited to I don't know maybe six seven eight years ago that we did the market research. Uh

we kept it going. We talked to more people more and more. Still this date I talk to ready mixers and here they have still that problem. They need to get the material from far distance. Uh some of them are not happy with the performance of their material. Uh and and it's just reassuring that the problem we're

working on is something real. So how long was it then that you were doing the research before you decided to jump into Oh, so so we did the research for about six, seven, eight months. Okay. uh and then we figured out there is something there. We thought okay let's take our research to the next step

try to scale it up in the lab make sure the process works and then that uh inspired the next two years of work after that which was 2019 20 and then we had a solid foundation for our technology for our product uh that we could think about like bringing into market.

So then bringing it into market what were your well okay so how about this what was it that uh at that point uh four or five years ago how would you describe uh what the product was at that point and then also how did you attempt to go to market the first time

how was a product back then like back in 21 okay uh so uh in the lab we thought about if we want to scale it up and then we start from there uh how we can produce it in the lab. So we bought uh a couple of equipment that kind of represented the largest larger

scale production of the uh our process and our material and then in the lab we started producing that aggregate uh process was very manual very simple uh but just the foundation was the production parameters uh again there's a huge amount of research going into that uh but that's how we start basically basically mimicking that industrial

vision that we had in the lab to show that proof of concept works and then and then taking that how is it that you went to market? So was it was it was it um you had established relationships with some companies that you had been doing research with you had sustained contact or

No, nothing. No, actually nothing. So we we had we had a couple of ready mixers that we still uh we were we were still talking to uh from time to time these concrete producers but no uh so we back in 21 we 2020 we said let's form a company let's think about how we can get

some uh seed money grant money to okay start because the the technology and the product at that time was still very was version one uh we still need to think think about how we can scale it up. We still needed to think about how the performance in concrete is going to be.

So we needed some more money to do research R&D mostly. Okay. Uh and then yes we applied for a grant and we got started there. Got it. Okay. So then so then how would you describe because I keep using the term go to market. How would you describe um the the in in the last uh four or

five years again since what you've been doing right now. How much of it was research until the point of uh being able to approach uh companies to do pilots, right? Uh could you repeat your question? I got distracted.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, no. What I what what I'm trying to get at is is uh at what point in the process uh in the last four or five years or so, how much of it was research heavy grant funded developing the product until and then at what point were you ready to go to uh

customers? Got it. Got it. Uh so I would say uh from 2021 to 2022 it was mostly research in the lab. Uh so just to give you give you an overview uh we would get samples from coal power plants uh from landfills uh test our process in the lab try to produce aggregate using that ash uh and then

show that the process works for different types of ash. We're still able to produce a a handful, a few pounds of the material regardless of the ash. We're a able to adapt that process to uh a new material uh because we didn't know who we're going to land a partnership with to still maybe uh we're trying to

figure that component out, but uh we wanted our process to be general and work with any type of ash. Uh so that 2021 2022 uh we were doing a lot of testing on the product showing the process works with any any type of ash and then from there we decided okay uh we figured out our process we want to

scale it up a little bit. We want to scale scale it up maybe 80 times in a pound in the lab we were producing about a few pounds of the material. We said we want to produce maybe a quarter of a ton of that material. uh and then we we tried to scale it up from there and then

that material enabled us to do bigger testing and customer trials. So we sent samples to a couple of ready mixers, they tested the materials and provided feedback on that. Okay. So that that goes right into my next question which is one of my favorite which is uh in the uh in the lifespan of the company in the

lifespan of going back and forth with potential um customers uh getting feedback like you're saying. How has the product uh and the company changed since you started? Oh, it it it has changed a good amount. So, thinking about like I don't know 2017 we were producing like single aggregate uh just one stone per per

do you still have any of those probably. Yeah. Uh but then uh in 21 we were producing few pounds of that material. Okay. uh and and the process changed and then in 2022 2023 that we produce quarter of a ton of that material. Uh the product itself changed a little bit as well. Uh we

changed some of the chemicals that we use. We changed uh some of the production parameters. Uh so it evolved and still probably going to evolve when we get to full scale. Uh but yeah, I can say I can't say it's been the same.

So then so then uh where it's at right now? So you kind of alluded to it in uh uh at the end of that answer. So where where Susax is right now with the development of the process um of the product of the company, how would you describe I guess in the last

uh six or 12 months or so? Okay. Yeah. um where has the company come to and uh where are you guys looking to go? Sure. Where it's at right now. So to to give you a little bit more context about timeline in 2022 2023 uh we did uh first I call it batch scale

production this quarter of a ton production. Uh that was our first one. Then in 2020 late 23 I think 24 uh we did our second batch scale production. uh another quarter of a ton using an auto material. Uh showed everything works. Uh the product is coming out as we want. Uh customers are giving us uh

great feedback on the material and then the next step for us was to scale it even further. Uh so we took it from that quarter of a ton in 2025 maybe uh five four or five months ago back in May June. uh we decided we want to produce 30 tons of that material. So we

commissioned a facility in Pennsylvania, brought in about 30 to 40 tons of materials from three utilities uh produced the material there at scale and we showed that we can recycle that material continuously at scale. We have about 15 tons of inventory. We've rented a warehouse. Uh we ship samples to our customers continuously for testing.

We're doing third party uh testing on the material. We're trying to uh work with these customers for offtake agreements. So this was the closest this pilot production that we did. I call it a tonnet scale pilot production. This demonstration or production that we did was the closest we could get to our pre-commercial production which is going

to be a continuous tonnet scale 24/7 365 uh 365 uh and uh that would be our next step that commercial production right now we're doing a lot of testing with customers to make sure this is the product they want and they're committed to purchasing that material.

So much movement. Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. Yeah, that is that is seriously it is so cool um to hear how much activity has been going on and it's I I always think about this when I'm listening to other interviews like this but u you know being in this one hearing your answers it's amazing to me that we could you

know that we could summarize three four five seven eight years if we wanted to go that far back of research and development and progress and so much time and effort and work that you and your team have put in and we could condense that and just summarize it in like 10 minutes, you know. So, so I

really, so I really want to give a lot of uh credit to you and your team for how much time you guys have spent on this, how hard you're working on it. I think it's really awesome. So um so so so where it stands right now uh you know whatever timeline is useful

for you 3 6 12 months 70 years I don't know but why does Zusmax exist and why does it have a place you know in you know where are you guys going uh where we're going is so as I said like right now a lot of testing optic agreements uh trying to make sure when we get to

commercial scale production of let's say producing 150,000 tons of co lightweight aggregate uh there's going to be enough customers lined up to purchase the material. Uh right now we're trying to work on that piece and then at the same time uh work with our utilities the utilities we're working with uh to have

a partnership to basically have a full scale plant close to that landfill and recycle that material at scale. Um, so we're hopeful in 2027, uh, we have a plant that is operational at scale, recycling material at scale, and then we're able to sell our material to readymix concrete suppliers and and show that uh, we can use this recycled

lightbeat aggregate uh, and produce good quality concrete with it. So, so awesome. First of all, I recognize that's incredible. And the fact that we can sit here and you can, you know, put that vision into the universe, I think is really cool.

Um, what what would you say um what would you say you've learned about growing because I would say from my perspective, you have successfully uh grown Susax to the point that it's at now relative to two years ago, three years ago. this this this style of company um uh heavy research and development uh you know the the industry

that you're in what what have you learned about what it takes to grow a company in this space? Oh, so before before answering that question, another component about where we're going and in terms of vision that I forgot to mention is uh so we have 750 coal ash landfills in the United States

and it's estimated to to have about two plus billion tons of ash sitting in these landfields. Uh so there is a there's a huge opportunity to recycle this material and basically get rid of these landfills and we're just one of the technologies that is able to do that or uh maybe another handful that

work with this type of material and try to recycle it into useful product for construction applications. Uh but but we're trying to start in the mid-Atlantic region. uh this is one of the market gaps that we're seeing here and then expand to southeast market, Midwest market and and a couple of other markets that have the demand for

lightweight aggregate. There is a couple of landfills that need to be recycled and there is a huge construction market that uh use that lightweight material lightbegg aggregate material. Uh that's in terms of like our growth and expanding and then hopefully uh other countries as well. uh there are there are a lot of these coach landfills

sitting in other countries that can be basically monetized and be recycled into useful construction products. Uh but now getting to your question about like what I have learned about growing a heavy research and development company or indeed company or as I call it like heart tech companies. Uh so it's it's not going to be as fast as you expect

for uh maybe software companies or uh AI companies as as as you uh as you would think. Maybe maybe the development side for them is about a year, a year and a half until they get to uh they get to revenue, get to uh maybe maybe uh what do you call it product market fit? Uh is that is that

is that how you call it? uh and for us because of the R&D and and the amount of work that needs to go needs to go into scaling up that process, scaling up the uh the the uh process itself is going to be a longer life cycle. We've been at it for about four or four and a half years

and we're still not at commercial scale to be able to generate revenue and sell our material. Uh it's going to take longer. it's going to take much longer. It needs more patience and needs the type of investors who understand uh this type of companies.

Is [snorts] there is there anything that you would um that you would say to another founder that's in uh the same space or maybe yourself, you know, four or five years ago? Because I think I I think the concept of, you know, it's going to take longer than you think, you know, you need the best. I think that's

really tangible and and uh useful advice. I mean is there anything else that comes to mind? Uh I think uh one thing I tell myself is to be to have a sense of urgency and at the same time to be patient. Uh because back in 21 I thought okay next two years 2022

2023 we're going to have a commercial scale facility producing the material at scale and we're going to we're going to be all over the market. Uh it turns out it's not like that. [laughter] scaling the process itself t takes a long time. Uh making sure everything works and it's a kind of a capex heavy

model for our case. Uh and that itself makes it a little bit more challenging. So just to to to have patience and and and uh and make sure everything is right and you have duris the technology uh considerably so when you get to that commercial scale nothing is going to go wrong.

Very wise. Unfortunately we're coming up on time. So uh I have two of my favorite questions to ask you. Sure. And uh first one is what is the biggest hurdle that you would say um either personally running the company susax itself what is the biggest hurdle that you guys are facing and how is it

also an opportunity? Uh what is the biggest hurdle we're facing and how is that an opportunity? Uh good question. Uh I I wouldn't I wouldn't call it I wouldn't call it a hurdle. It's just uh the natural life cycle of the business that we need to go through is to show to our

customers our product is so good that they all be satisfied with it. And it takes time to test the product, get these customers to test it. Uh, and then give us feedback and move the conversation forward that yes, let's sit down, talk about if we want to if we want to purchase this material from you,

how much we're willing to spend, how much of material we're going to offtake. Uh, it's just a consuming process and we're going through it. Uh, but I wouldn't I wouldn't call it a problem. Sure. Uh yeah, I I I think that's what we're focused on right now and and that's kind of the thing that's consuming me,

consuming our efforts and energy. Uh but I wouldn't say it's a hurdle, it's definitely an opportunity though. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Um and and so and so uh related to that question with all of these uh the work that has to go into um this space the things that you're focusing on being so consumed uh

what inspires you? What inspires me? Uh I think the first vision that I had uh when I started in 21 I was thinking we're going to have a commercial facility. We're going to recycle this material at scale. are going to have a positive impact. Having that positive impact, that's something that's something that drives me. uh

being able to generate produce this material out of waste waste ash instead of mining virgin and natural materials is something uh I think it's it's positive for the environment and we can maybe recycle these landfills and close these landfills for the good for for a long time and at the same time producing

a useful material for the construction market. Uh I think the impact in that sense is really something that drives me. Well, uh if anyone else was inspired like I am, but uh Cesmax, if anyone else was inspired to follow along with your story or the company story, what's the best way to do that?

Uh you can check out our website. You can reach us uh through the website uh and uh all our information is listed there. I think they can they can get in touch. Got it. Do it. Go do it. Thank you so much for your time. This is such a cool uh conversation. I'm excited to stay in

touch. See where you guys go. Yeah. Thank you so much. It was great talking to you.