Sustainable Change with Dr. Jacqueline Kerr, Founder @ Leading Real Change

Hello. Today on the show we have Dr. Jacqueline Kerr. Dr. Kerr is an expert in change. We talk about change on a local level, talk about change on a municipal level, and we talk about change uh within a corporation. She is not only an expert in inciting change, doing it systematically, but doing it in

a way that lays a foundation for it to be sustainable, not only long-term, uh, but also, you know, with the environment. This is important if you want to introduce any type of new operations or new workflow or even habits, you know, in your own life while you're building your business. Um, and how to do it in a way uh that's

thoughtful and uh sustainable for the long term. So, shout out to our sponsors as always, Clean Tech Growth Lab. If you're growing in clean tech, they're the people to do it with and the producers of this podcast, Craze and Friends. With that, I give you Dr.

Welcome to another episode of The Grove. Shout out to the sponsors mentioned just before this. Without them would not be possible to interview awesome people doing awesome things like Dr. Jacqueline Kerr. Welcome. Thank you so much for having me today.

Yes. So, we're going to get right into it. uh before I start rambling and covering uh you know all of my questions, if you could just give a brief introduction of yourself and what you're building. Yeah, certainly. So, my name's Dr.

Jacqueline Kerr. I have a background in behavioral science implementation, science, and systems change. So, I come from a sort of science background, but very practical in terms of research with communities and people on the ground. Um I came to the US. So, I'm originally from the UK, but I came to the US 20

years ago to lead a um healthy and sustainable cities research network, an international network. And from that, we were able to discover that um what would make a healthy city, what were the things we needed to do? We even got that into local plans and um cities committed to that. But those plans didn't then

become reality. So that's when I started working with community members to actually say like let's show these policy makers we want this to happen. Um so that was part of my journey and now I'm really trying to translate those lessons from um how we can actually get real large scale change in the world

both of people and places and policies um how to learn from that to help corporations now um follow the same strategies. So I have a company leading real change to do that. Nice. Yeah. something that uh something that interested me and why I reached out in the first place was I love talking

about um big picture you know large scale uh how to implement change what direction all of this uh good momentum in the clean tech space what direction it's going because a lot of times when I have conversations with founders or investors it's very like you know we're in the weeds we're building you know are

doing things every day um to really push this very hyperspecific solution to a problem along. Uh but if we take everything if we zoom way out, we take everything together, you know, um do things make sense? What else, you know, can we uncover um you know, how do how do things uh make sense together? So, uh

a little bit more about your story. uh what was the uh the experience um with the the the policy group that uh that ultimately didn't uh come to life. Yeah. So um you know we we basically you you know if you're going to do change um in the world you you know you first got

to know what change is going to be impactful. And I I think that's where we're at a little bit now with sustainability and companies thinking about something like the STBI science-based target initiatives. And so yeah, I mean it starts with science knowing actually, you know, if you do this, what's going to happen there? So

that's that's where it it it's great to to start with. What we have to remember and I think is also climate scientists are experiencing right now is just because the science is there and you communicate it doesn't mean that anybody acts upon it. So the work we did actually did get into policy documents.

So a lot of cities have master plans and and places where they could go right now we know what it is we can do for a city but like most projects that people work on the implementation doesn't necessarily have a budget or personnel tied to it. So I would often sit on um

scientific advisory boards at the local regional state level and I was just seeing that policy makers weren't looking at me as a scientist and saying oh I want to you know please that person do what they're saying you know I'm not persuaded by this science and so that's when I really started to say look these

people are persuaded by their constituents so that's when then I got out of the the the sort of boardrooms that I was in where I was in some ways checking a box. I was just there to confirm to them that this had a science basis and then I actually went into communities and brought community um

members together who wanted to work on things like um fresh local foods or active transportation. So things that are really important for sustainability and then basically said okay what can you do as a group to show that um you're supporting each other you're doing this work together because we shouldn't be doing it alone. Like we have so much

research evidence showing that change happens so much more quickly and effectively when it's done as a group because you're all supporting each other. You're inspiring each other. you're um you know providing that social reinforcement that that is how change happens, right? Um and so then once people started to actually create change and do change products in their their

community and show they wanted change, then we invited policy makers in and said, "Hey, what do you want? Do you like one come to you know these events where we're doing this work where we're showing change is happening showing that these communities care about it your constituents care about it they would bring their PR folks so this would be a

PR opportunity for them to be seen out in their community around something important driven by not just one community member you know complaining at a a council meeting and being a you know not in my backyard but a whole group of people who collectively were making a difference in their community and and

having real change. Um and then those policy makers would come and see that something was actually happening that these people were serious about it. And then we invite them to say, okay, how would how can we make this scale and stick and the policy makers would go, you know, this aligns with the policies

we're trying to do in our our community. So we're going to continue to support this group to lead change and we're also going to you know prioritize some of the build infrastructures for example as they aligned with policies.

Yeah. Is there is there a particular uh example that you have of something that had gone really well like this where there was there was group people that were excited about it policy makers that came together policy that was made and then successfully implemented and then something improved.

Yeah. I mean uh the the simplest things like for example if you want to support active transportation getting crosswalks at the in the right places operating at the right speeds for different population groups like older adults being able to cross the road. Um so even something small like that um putting those into the right places. um fixing

potholes on sidewalks, all those types of things support um uh active transportation. So that's an example where communities basically started doing community walks, looking at what was in their um community that was getting in their way and then um looking up to um you know there are pots of money in government for these things. So

they'd actually go in and start to apply for those pots of money and sometimes change would would happen like you know a crosswalk would would get built or things would be fixed or there would be greening of an area or a maintenance work being done because sometimes things are just overgrown and people can't

access spaces anymore. So all those types of things or um setting up a community garden or um making better access to a farmers market with different types of um things that you can pay with. All these types of things help people actually um get what they need and and to do everyday behaviors.

Um so those were the types of things and so the policies were already on the books but they weren't being acted upon. So then you get the community to like live out the policies and then um show the policy makers like these policies are worth you then investing more in and we're bringing your policies to life.

And that's what then they see. They'd be like, "Wow, this work aligns with our policy. Let's, you know, let me support this group to continue to make progress on this policy." So it was such a different perspective. So, if I was somebody that came to you and said, uh, I want to, uh, create change in my city of

Philadelphia. And it was along the lines of, uh, activating a certain plot of land or uh, you know, a crosswalk or or something uh, of that scale within the city. What are the chain of questions that you would ask me in order to like like what's a playbook for me for how to

think about how to get from A to B and an expected timeline of how long that that could take. Right. Yeah. And another type of example that I helped someone with recently, for example, is um a food cooperative. So, that's something that's happening quite a lot in the UK where neighbors are getting together and um ordering and

buying food in bulk so that all the prices are are lower. Um and what's so amazing about those opportunities is not only do they then all get, you know, groceries at a a lower price that they then split amongst the communities, but you get to know your community members, you get to know your neighbor less of

this. Oh, you know, everyone's voting this or that. I hate everyone around me. It's all online. This is like real people doing real things together for affordability. Uh and um then when somebody doesn't come to pick up their food, you're like, "Okay, what's going on? That family or that older adult, you know, is part of

our cooperative and you go check on your neighbors." So like even something really concrete like that um which again is is is taking action together and that's what we need to move out of. So if you came to me and I had someone come to me recently asking about this so that's why it's a good example you know

and and so my first question is who are you doing it with because it's back to that do not do this alone and this killer person I was helping like they really just wanted to ask me what should my message be to these people and I was like well well who are you doing it with

first and what know about these people like where are they at and why are you introd introducing a food co-op. Do you know that that's actually the your neighbors priorities? You know, are you the best messenger for this neighborhood or actually is there something quite often neighborhoods kind of have a gatekeeper person who who is the

messenger who knows everyone? Um and so things like that, that's how I start. It's really about you you've got to do this with a group of people. you got to get buy in early on and um and then you start to think about okay we're gonna try and roll this out and do messaging

and and that all comes later. So the first part is getting a shared vision amongst a group of people who essentially want to come together potentially for to totally different reasons like you know somebody might be coming and saying like well will you know food food cooperatives are really good for social resilience right and now

someone else might come and say no for me it's just about affordability and for you know so so people can come for totally different reasons So I think that's the most important thing you know we have to think about is um who who who are we going to be doing this with where

are they coming from what are their priorities who's the best messenger who matches those priorities and that can then become that messenger for the collective because often as sustainability people or you know new new tech around um green tech you know we're coming in with origin our point of view and um it's so far removed from the

people we're trying to influence. So that's really what I always talk about as like that first step. So then so then after that I mean I don't know I haven't set up a co-op yet but I assume you don't need um you know like approval from policy or or or that. So is there like a different is

there like different kinds of projects that take that that that course? Yeah. I mean that's just an example of like how you responded with collective action, right? Um no I mean it yeah if you were coming and you like mentioned you know there was there was a plot of land that you wanted to change say and

and work on as a community garden. Again some of it too is kind of and again I always get a little bit nervous about um suggesting this but it's something we call tactical urbanism. So you you would almost like take over the land, start growing some things, have some projects, produce, and then say,

"Does anyone want this to go back to an empty lot that that is a blight on the landscape?" Right? And if you think about sort of New York, um they have just instituted the congestion charges and everybody's loving it because it's it's quieter, it's safer. Um so many things are positive about it, but they

could not get everyone to agree to do that. They could not get approval. So they basically said there was so many people saying this will disadvantage poor people, which isn't true because they're already on public transportation. They're not driving into the city, you know. So people always have their arguments for like why not to

do it. And so New York basically said, you know what, we're just going to pilot it for a short period of time and if people don't like it, we'll go back. Mhm. Everybody loves it. So this is such an important part of change is you have to show change. You have to let people

experience it positively. You have to let them see this is possible. here's the innovation that's going to make it possible. Um, here's the people who who are benefiting, who are leading it. The more that you make change come alive, that people can actually see the thing and and be part of it, um, that's how

change happens in the world. So, okay. Well, I'm I'm glad I'm glad you didn't uh hold back that point because I feel that's a I I feel strongly about that one. I think that's a that that's a good thing for people to hear and and for people to use uh in order to get uh

projects going. So, continuing with this theme of the the framework. So, I like the first step which is getting absolute clarity about understanding the community that you're looking to serve, getting your why, getting your how, and then a potential next step. Again, depending on the project, because if we're talking about something like a

crosswalk, you know, you need to collaborate with a number of stakeholders. Uh but if it's something like a a community uh garden potentially the next step is to do it like literally just do it. Um and uh and and and prove to people the the positive impact. So along uh along with the theme where

would it go where would it go from here? How do you get something that is uh that is a change uh to have it stick around and or scale? Yeah. So again um and as we think about translating some of this into the corporate space I'll start to make that transition a little bit now so that you

can see like how the same um experiences stick. So the you know if you bring together say say for example you brought together a a um group of people and they they really need to come in the corporate space from different um departments different business units because you're going to have to have

marketing and procurement and legal all the different people own some part of sustainability and it's that ownership that's so important. So, one of the most important things to start with is to invite people together to come together from different places. And again, you could you could think of that in the community like you'd want to have people

who are the gardeners, but maybe the gardeners are crap at selling or whatever. So, like you have to have all the right people there and maybe the gardeners and the sellers aren't actually going to be the best person to then smoo with the the um whatchamacallit, the policy maker or whatever. So you got to just sort of be

thinking about yeah uh collective action requires all sorts of different types of people. It's not just one sort and we really have to value everyone for their role. So we really have to value the procurement teams. We really have to value the legal teams. And the point is as sustainability leaders is not to do

all those jobs, not to think that's our job. Our job is to help everybody else to do their jobs that they already know best how to do. like I'm not going to change a legal contract. I want the lawyer in a company to to to do that. So essentially that's what you need to do

is bring everyone in from these different parts with the different skills and help them build that vision together. And then as they're building that vision, they're the one coming with the solutions to whatever problem the group is trying to face. And that's what's so important is that they're there from the beginning that they have

buy in that they're creating the solution. They're saying the legal team is saying, "Hey, here's how I would change the contract. Hey, procurement, does this look like the right language? What conversations are you going to be having? Who's your contact in commercial? In fact, is a supplier going to have to change where they get their

energy from? Therefore, like who in that organization makes that decision?" You're really trying to think about all the decision makers and all the parts and have them at the table from from the beginning and then you want them to keep coming back to that table. So that's how you move to the next phase is to keep

people coming back to that table because they were valued, progress happened, you have really short cycles for for for reviewing progress, seeing that it's happened. And then you take that hub, I call those action hubs, and you replicate them. So anyone that has had a role in that first hub, they become the

leader of the next hub in their network. And that's how it builds like hub to hub and you build this network. So with the community garden, you take the lessons learned from your community and you'd have someone um come from the other community. You teach them all about what your community did and then you'd set

them up to go away and do their hub in their community. So that's how it sticks is buyin from the beginning of people wanting to keep coming back because they value what they're doing and they value what they're learning and then teaching people how to lead the next hub.

Beautiful. So it so long to get there. No, no, no, no. I think because that's all really um those points are really useful and when I was thinking about like okay, I'm going to do this. I'm going to, you know, think about in action hubs and everything. How like what do you use to ground all this

information? What do you use to uh gather this information, organize it? Do you have preferred systems for here are questions you should be asking in order to get uh particular decision makers on board? here is a way to you should create a decision stakeholder map for example like you should use uh you know

I don't know if you have u like preferred project management tools or even like ways to set them up to to to track this this this action hub uh framework like you know what are the tools that we're using to engage in this yeah and and in a corporate setting I would be starting with what I would call

impact mapping um and that's one tool to really say, okay, what has already be happened? Cuz like remember we said change is the thing that creates more change. So we need to make sure we're amplifying any change that exists. So there's um an impact mapping tool where you you're basically trying to see okay

what impact are we having? Where are we having gaps? Where is it rippling to that we didn't anticipate? Where is it not working? So then you can really say okay which are the things we should be repeating and amplifying which do we need to reset. Um for me this all comes down to really being having a

facilitator. So you can use all sorts of different types of projects. You know you can use mirror boards to get um brainstorming and and mapping things together. But for me it's less about those tools and more about um how do you facilitate that type of meeting? How do you make sure that everyone is heard

that their contributions are are valued? How do you set it up so that people um are supportive each of each other. So the group when the group anyone in the group like someone in procurement has a win everyone in the group feels like yeah we were part of that we helped that person have that win. So that a win for

one person is a win for the whole group. Um how do you have the group be small enough for example so that everyone can contribute because if you have a really large group what you get is called social loafing. So people just come and they just sit on a meeting and they're there never say anything and so if they

never say anything their contributions don't get valued like and and then they're not really they haven't bought into the process. So again, we really, you know, you want to have these groups be small enough so that actually people coming and they keep coming back cuz they're like everybody's got to hear about my progress or I've got to be

there because Blake um was going to be reporting on his project and I want to hear if there's anything I can do to help him or support him, help him problem solve. So it's it's that sense of belonging and being valued that that keeps people coming back. Um, so those are some of the tools. I I definitely

think as we move forward, AI has a role here. Um, um, and I've been speaking to someone about developing some of these types of tools in terms of AI can really help us be a better facilitator. Like it could um, have nudges to remind me to make sure that I in get everybody's

voice in the room. It can help even just with, you know, transcripts and action items and things like that. it can show, oh, this was so and so's idea and and remind me to thank that person for that idea. Um, and then also one of the most important things because we focus so

much on data but we don't realize that data doesn't actually um register in our brain. We we don't remember it and it doesn't um go into the parts of the brains that elicit empathy. And that's empathy is when we start to go, "Oh, I want to do something. I want to take action.

So that's why we need much more like human centered stories from these change makers. Like I said, somebody in the the garden, you you'd interview the gardener and you'd interview and and hear their human stories. And that's again AI can help us curate those types of stories so that we can say, okay, I've got a story

here that really matches with this group over here who's going to be doing something similar. And it's like the curation part of of AI can help with that. Um and so and and I am actually seeing also there are some cases to um for example in called engage California where they're using AI to actually get a

lot more information from constituents after the wildfires last year to say how do we want to build back. So AI can do um so many like interviews and bringing information together and then analyzing it and and doing things with data is particularly qualitative like interview data in ways that we've never done before. Um and I think those that's

really important because it's the qualitative the interview data the human words the humans speaking that um we can you know when we bring when we can organize that and and learn from it um in more effective ways you know that's when we can really make progress. So, I I I do I do have a

question you had uh you had posted about this a while ago that I do want to ask, but before we get there, is there anything else you want to add as far as this changemaking framework goes? Because I think you've said a lot of uh really awesome things so far, and I just

want to make sure you know we Yeah, I think I think nothing that I'm thinking I've forgotten, but uh yeah. Cool. Well, I'm excited to I'm excited to break this into, you know, the the framework explain the different levels of change um you know, after this episode. So, that's cool. something that you posted on that I'm curious about

because it's it's always curious to me and it's something that before I even had a strong interest in this space was always critical of is this uh the word the term of sustainability or sustainable so when we say like um sustainability professionals you know what does sustainability mean what does sustainable mean to you

right huh I thought you were going to ask me my head was already thinking about that answer in a different way. I thought you were going to ask me um like like whether that word is a barrier. Um um yeah. So so um sustainability to me um it it can be like a co- benefit. It can

be the side story, right? It doesn't have to be the the first thing that we talk about. Um because really what I want people to do is experience change in some way that has meaning to them with other people and then we can make that experience grow into something that that has a closer tie to um say you know

re renewable energy um less water use uh reducing waste um changing packaging changing how the community recycles etc. We don't start with these big things. So I know sustainability is is related to everything. You know some people say oh we managed to stop smoking so we can stop you know we can do sustainability

like that and it's like no that was like one behavior with quite a small group of people and it didn't impact that many things. Whereas like when we think about sustainability it's everything everywhere all the time. It's so interconnected. So for me, what's so important about it is that we just um bite off small steps to get started

particularly. So um I think people think you got to have a big thing and impactful and they're thinking scale and I and I'm always thinking scale but I'm thinking where do you start from to get that buy in first. So like gateway behaviors is one way I talk about that.

So for example, most companies have been talking about like their their carbon and reducing carbon, but then even companies that have reduced carbon, nobody understands what they did or what happened. They can't see it. So sometimes it's better to focus on a different behavior that is much more visible. Um I think people understand

water much better than carbon. They can see waste more easily than they can carbon. So I think it to to for us to be open to these um gateway experiences where people go, "Hey, we made a difference. We did something together.

We made a difference. We we we've got experience of of making change happen, leading change, like of getting people together to do that. Okay. Now, let's go and focus on the the the more difficult behaviors, the the the things that's that aren't as visible." So, so with so with that I guess quick does sustain

does sustainable or sustainability mean something different for you on a personal level rather than a a commercial scale? Uh no, I mean I think uh it it it means I don't know whether that's the same thing, but like what it means to me personally is trying to ride my bike as often as possible. um getting into my

trash cans and making sure my kids have put the recycling in the right place. It means um working with communities to to make sure that you know places like um uh community gardens are are accessible. Uh you know, working with advocacy organizations so that there are safe streets and and crosswalks.

um making sure that um when a when a community group is trying to do something that I advise them, you know, don't go petition your politician, don't go to the council meeting. Let's start change and then invite those policy makers in. So for me, um you know, I it it's about really, you know, reducing my

my carbon footprint, trying not to travel for work. I'm so glad we do this as a interview ride on online. Um and um my choices of of foods, reducing food waste. Um so all all the things that that that one can do, having um you know, not using too much water in the in

the home and and um in the garden, you know, just everything that's about resources, right? Um my daughter sews um her own clothes and and reuse clothes and makes new clothes. So like for me that's all um all those things are part of what I consider is sustainability. Um there's a big there's there's a there's

a you know when it then comes to corporate it's like who are we trying to influence? Are we trying to influence consumers like me? Are we trying to influence policy makers? Are we trying to influence our suppliers or our employees? Um, so like what you do could be different because of all those

different audiences. But again, I always think about the how is still show change. Show it's happening, show it's possible and get people excited about it. Well, something that you had mentioned uh before that was if it's a barrier or not. So, do you think it's a barrier? If so, how?

Yeah. Um and and I I think again you know just the different examples of this. So for example my daughter was doing a sustainability project at school and they saw this person who had got all their plastics in one jar um for a whole year of plastics in one jar and she's holding it out and and this person

advocates around that and all the kids in my daughter's class said that's AI that's fake. And it's like yeah because it seems ridiculous that you can get all your plastics and what it's so far from their understanding and their reality.

So um I think yeah as as sustainability folks when we talk about um sustainability I mean again if we go into a seauite right now and we're we're banging on about sustainability versus cost savings versus new consumer experiences versus enduring commercial value versus supply chain resilience.

Right? Those are the things we should be talking about when we're talking to consumers. um you know when if we talk about you know green products to say a beauty person and and you know companies like L'Oreal found this they're like well those won't work they'll be worse products I know they won't work right so

that dismisses them or um if you talk to somebody about green this or green that and and they're you know they're from a different you know they're from a a political identity a social identity that that doesn't want to support those things, you're not going to have a good conversation. But if you get someone who um is from their

social identity, who talks to them about energy independence through solar, a a totally different discussion. So I think we have to just remember that we can remove ourselves as the sustainability professional who knows it all, who does it all perfectly, although none of us do, right? And and who um you know is

the messenger um and the message is sustainability to actually saying, okay, who are the people we we we want to change? What do they we want them to do? Who's the best messenger for them? and then let them lead on that message cuz they're going to talk to them based on the same values and and what we say is

not necessarily what's in line with that full circle. That's uh that that's a concept that you spoke about at the beginning of the uh uh at the beginning of the conversation was to uh uh to really nail that that change in. So so well done. I think that's really awesome within this uh

within this this framework that we walked through and this idea of what sustainability means and how to push more of it into the world uh with the with all the work that you're doing. I'm curious uh what inspires you people that change is possible. I feel I speak to so many people that just say people

won't change. Nobody's wants to change. People won't change. Change isn't possible. And I I just absolutely disagree. I mean, I you know, we can change people and we can support people to change, right? Um it's like, of course, you know, they they have to want to, but but you know, you you do all the

things you use the psychology and the behavior change science to actually get that process happening. So for me when I think about you know how corporations have approached sustainability right now it's been this very much focus on from the regulations and then all the things you do double materiality assessment risk assessment you know reporting none

of these things inspire change none of things actually you know give you the skills to go oh how do we actually reduce carbon how do we reduce waste you know you you need your frontline factory workers to be working some of those things out and and um or your suppliers coming up with innovated new ways of of

packaging and and none of that's going to happen if they're just focused on like checking boxes and reporting. None of those experiences of actually reducing is going to happen. So um I mean I have absolute belief that we can do this because I really believe people are great at changing when they have the

right people and supports around them. Um so yeah that's that's really what inspires me. Um, you know, I would I would love for for um the world to be a better place for my kids, but but for me in some ways that that feels like a little selfish because like it's pretty pretty privileged as it

is. I would much rather that we, you know, we have a world where we're empowering um all sorts of people to um lead change. Well then well great. Well that is inspiring. What inspires you is inspiring. Uh if anyone else was inspired to uh follow along or get in touch. What's the best way to do that?

Yeah reach out to me on LinkedIn or folks can go to my website which is um leadingrealchange.com and um yeah I I have you know I can help as a thought partner. I can be a co-f facilitator of activities or I can be a co-leader if you need that much involvement. But my um philosophy is

really to um develop the next leaders to build capacity within communities and within companies um because that's what we need. We need more people able to do this. So that's why when everyone's like, "Oh, this competitive feeling of suppliers, well, we'll only have these suppliers respond to RFPs or whatever." It's like, we don't win when we do it

that way. Everybody needs to change. So, let's have that support. That's right. Dr. Jacqueline Kurt, thank you so much for your time. I'm excited for the next one. Great. Thank you.