Scaling CleanTech with Eben Meyer, CEO @ CleanTech Growth Lab

Oh, today on the show we have Yebin Meyer from Cleantech Growth Lab. And if you've been following along, you'll know that Cleantech Growth Lab is one of the partner companies of this podcast. So, anytime I get to hang out with Yebin uh and also learn from his uh expertise in growing in cleantech, it's always a good time

for me. And uh the fact that we get to record it means it's also a good time for you. So, uh Yebin's team is releasing a series on how to scale specifically from series A to series B. So, uh they'll be producing a lot of uh really useful and informative content over the the

following months and I got a chance to uh schedule uh a series of episodes with him to discuss it. So, this is episode one in the series of how to scale from series A to series B. We talk about the pieces in cleantech that make customer acquisition cost or CAC structurally high relative to uh other industries.

And uh in future episodes, we'll get into what to do about it. So, thank you as always to them, Cleantech Growth Lab. If you're looking to grow in cleantech, they're the people to do it with. And the producers of this podcast, Kraze and Frends. And with that, I give you Yebin.

Oh, welcome to another episode of The Grove. Shout out to our sponsors. Mention it. Wait. We have one in this Yebin, thank you for being a partner company to The Grove cuz without people like you, it would not be possible to interview awesome people doing awesome things like yourself. Welcome.

Well, thank you very much. It's great to chat to you. Great to chat to you again. Um lots of exciting stuff happening on both sides, I think. So, yeah. Tell me what's on your mind. Oh, man. I can't wait to get into it. I mean, the reason that, uh, you know, it excites me to be partnered

with this whole initiative is because of the work that you guys are doing at Clean Tech Growth Lab. Um, you know, I I admire the way you guys go about it. Uh, the framework that we're going to discuss over the next few episodes. Uh, I'm excited to give it a platform and really deeply understand it

cuz even myself, uh, you know, just personally curious about uh, what you've developed and how you guys are implementing it. So, um, for everyone else that doesn't know yet, if you give a brief introduction of yourself and what you're building.

Yeah, sure. I'm I mean, my name is Evan. I work with a small and mighty team. We're deeply focused on B2B Clean Tech. Um, it's where we think some of the biggest structural changes to improving the world are going to come from.

Um, and we like that idea. We like that there are so many brilliant founders out there that have these really strong products. Um, we're just dedicated to helping them grow their businesses. Um, section of that is sales and marketing, specifically marketing.

Um, yes, our approach is really looking at these really common marketing challenges, you know, having a having a high customer acquisition cost, having low conversion rates, things that everyone struggles with and we're trying to address these systematically, like looking at it um, like a bunch of mad scientists and looking at the patterns

that we can find, looking at the changes that we can make that are going to give you some kind of compounding return over time. Um, that's what we're in for. How long have you been, uh, building Clean Tech Growth Lab?

It's a fairly new venture in the grand scheme of things. Uh, I've been doing it for 3 years now and that's come out of the back of a lot of focus that I had on B2B um industrial, B2B SaaS, B2B software, enterprise tech, um which actually shares a lot of similarities to Cleantech Group Lab. So,

about 3 years ago I decided, you know, there's plenty of large corporations, there's plenty of growth. I enjoy the work, but I'm looking for something a little bit more impactful. So, that's what got me going on this about 3 years ago.

Did you always see yourself as being a founder, being an entrepreneur? Is there something that happened at some point and you said, "This is what I want to do instead." I think I've I've always been pretty bad at following orders, uh which makes me a pretty difficult employee.

And that's been that's always been in the back of my mind, but really I I think what it came down to was I I crave working with small teams and I I love I love that speed you get, right? You get when you work with a small team of people that you trust, you can get

almost anything done. Um and that was really what pushed me after working on yeah, the la- the larger kind of corporate side really got me realizing this about myself and yeah, also just seeing that there's there's so much opportunity out there to actually advance this movement, right?

Of clean technology and climate tech. Yeah. So, I think uh so I think a good place to start then uh before I get into my uh many questions for the both of us to discuss, is something that's been happening recently uh to me is when I am describing to people that I meet uh about this podcast

or you know, the other work that I do in the space, I say, uh I work in clean tech or I help climate tech companies. Uh even just just 2 weeks ago, um I had this woman page on who leads community at uh uh Nature Tech Collective. Nature Tech.

And so, I asked her, you know, about uh, cuz that's another term that's thrown around in the space to describe what it is. And I've heard a lot of different, um, uh, for a lot of different takes on on what it is. I think my personal, uh, my personal favorite to describe what I'm working on is climate tech

because I see that as a specific as a specific area of clean tech because clean tech can, um, uh, clean tech can also refer to like, uh, biology, you know, like biotech, uh, or food science, uh, or material science. And I think climate tech specifically it has a lot to do with, uh, like water or energy, um, or

atmosphere or things like this. But it's hard cuz like, you know, the lines are blurred. So, you know, the company's literally called Clean Tech Growth Lab. Like, what is your definition of what clean tech means? Yeah, that's such a good question. I I think it's one of those things that all of us in the space

we're very aware of how that definition can change. And I think the definition actually has changed over time. You know, in the beginning, uh, clean tech 1.0, right, like early 2000s, it was such a new space that you could have that umbrella of clean tech and it would capture all these new developments that were being

driven by policy or, you know, driven by like economic need. And I think what's happened over time is that those have pro- proliferated. That's a big word for me. Into so much of the economy today, right? That you're you're finding clean tech within manufacturing. You're finding it within water. You're finding it within all these incumbent industries

that it's just becoming like good technology. Now, by nature has to be, um, sustainable or circular or less wasteful. So, I think in the beginning it was very clear what that meant. Now, it's becoming distributed across many industries. and this is actually a a healthy sign that it's becoming a more mature market. But, I agree with you.

I I see Clean Tech as being quite focused on maybe what I see as some of the core areas like energy being upstream of almost every other industry is such an important industry. I see that as a core pillar.

Water as well, you know, just from a from a human wellness perspective it's it's so important for society. Um but I I guess I don't want to limit it to that. I know that if you Google it you'll find a specific definition. I'll put AgTech in there as well.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. But, to be honest, yeah, I think I think climate's really the place where I feel the most drawn to because that's really where if you can solve those problems you're enabling the infrastructure to solve many more problems afterwards, right?

So, so then so then with with that is there and I mean ask me the same question. Even though I think my definition is just what I'm personally interested in but as far as the ethos of Clean Tech Growth Lab goes is there a certain criteria that a a company has to meet to be

Clean Tech, you know, to be someone that you engage with? Yeah, another great question cuz I do feel that sometimes those lines can be blurred, right? Like especially if you're working in the energy, a lot of the products that we have with are really infrastructure products that improve the efficiency of the grid.

And you could argue that the grid takes both dirty and clean energy in and so is that strictly Clean Tech? Is it not Clean Tech? I see it as you know, if we look at the goal that we're trying to get to, if we're looking at net zero as a goal, whatever major blockers exist in that

path, I see as part of the Clean Tech mission, right? So, that's that's what we're assessing for is does this materially move us closer to where we want to be? I would say, you know, the most important thing is this is a product that has impact that's built on a strong philosophy.

You can see that it's being that the product is also being developed in the right areas that, you know, we don't just have a product that's been deployed for profit to the highest bidder, but there's actually a vision for how this is going to go from being quite substantial to being something that's like integral to the next level

of technology, right? So, we're looking for growth and we're looking for impact. Man, that was that was that was a good one. You said that that actually for me really clicked about if at all the technology is related to destroying or alleviating a blocker on our way to net zero then it is considered clean tech. And

that is that is super broad. And I I think, you know, deserves a little bit more conversation, but for me, I mean, that's really helpful. I mean, last week I had uh Emily Dr. Emily Grubert. She's a professor at Notre Dame. She does research in the clean energy transition.

And her her take, which is actually really sick, she said there is not a clean energy transitioning transition actually happening. Cuz in order for the transition to happen, we need to be moving towards something and away from something else. And all we're doing at the moment is adding capacity of renewable energy generation onto the grid without moving

away from fossil fuel generation. And so because that movement away is not happening, she from her definition says that it's it's not actually happening. And and the definition of being able to actually move away is if people committed to net zero. Because if we committed to net zero, we would say, okay, then these fossil fuels, you know,

they work against net zero. Therefore, we have to transition away from it. So, So, I think I don't know. That just clicked for me is when you said, you know, anything blocking the way to get there is a part of clean tech. And it just, you know, it connects a lot of dots for me. So, I appreciate that. I'm

going to start I'm going to use that. I'm going to steal that from you. Right. That's such an important like voice and quite such an important angle, right? I'm curious where you stand on this, but I feel like we need both.

People that are willing to like stand the ground and say like, "No, no, no. This is not This is not the power that we need like Yeah. We get that people are working towards this, but really we need to be sober about it and look at the urgency of the matter.

Um we need these kinds of voices and then I think we also need voices which are maybe a bit softer. Because corporations will ultimately buy in line with their own economic incentives. And there you're taking you know, you're not you're not trying to guilt someone into buying something. You're you're guilt you're basically appealing to

their bottom line instead. I think both sides of this are needed at the same time, right? Well, that I mean that that's that's what was cool about about I think her hardline definition of saying something like I think as stark as an energy transition is not happening because in order to do that there needs

to be a declaration that we are doing this and there is a transition. She said, "Nobody to her knowledge has done that." Like not any administration federally at least in the United States, anywhere in the world. Like there hasn't been a declaration. She said the the the closest thing there was there was a

state Indiana in the US that had passed or Illinois, one of those two, that had passed a law that said coal-powered plants are being shut down by 2035. That is happening. It is a law. Uh there's more details about like how you actually make that happen and how you enforce it. That's a different

conversation. But anyway, she said that is an actual that's an actual declaration that there is a transition that is going to happen. This is a goal that we have. So, um so yeah, I think I that's that that's where I stand on that is is is is what you said. There needs to be an actual

declaration that happens. Um and and it's and it's cool. I mean, that's why I think like, you know, language and the vocabulary that we're able to use to discuss all these things is important because it enables uh you know, the space to to come together and actually move forward together. So, um that's what I'd say is my stance. So,

with um with that in with that in mind, traveling towards net zero, that definition of clean tech with the foundation laid, uh capitalism, for everything that it is not, it is a good vehicle, um you know, to to in in a lot of ways for clean technology to scale and become a real thing in the world. And that is

exactly what you uh specialize in, what we're both passionate about. And so, one of the things that um that we've spoken about that you're really knowledgeable in is uh you say structurally in the space, customer acquisition is high for clean tech. There's a lot to unpack in that statement. And uh and I want to I I want to know first,

why is that the case? Why is that something that you feel like is uh is important for people to know and people scaling in the space to think about. Yeah, I think you and I probably share a lot of the same intuition about this.

I think at a very high level, we need to we need to look at what's driving the space forward and it is often going to be investment. It's often going to be venture capital or institutional capital or even sovereign capital.

But, there are investors looking at these decisions to invest in clean clean tech or climate tech. And they're looking at the profitability of those investments. And based on the profitability of these new innovations, you know, compared to the status quo, compared to the other places that could be invested, that ultimately is going to be what

drives the speed of investment and therefore the speed of adoption of these great products. So, I think that's why CAC and not just the ultimate customer acquisition cost, but the rate at which you can get CAC payback on your investment, that's why it's so important cuz it's essentially going to be the grease that accelerates that engine.

We need to look at it structurally because, you know, especially if you're building a deep tech where you have a lot more costs and you have a lot more infrastructure to go up against and getting someone to buy your product.

It's we need to approach it with a real sober understanding of the challenges that exist. Uh it's not a B2B SaaS product. This is not a widget. It's not something that you can just sell on to market and just buy, right? So, other considerations and I think being honest about that allows us to actually deal

with that challenge. So, so, um for let's just say for someone that doesn't understand the concept or maybe is growing a company, um you know, has has has raised a round, does not have a repeatable playbook for acquisition or scale, you know, has maybe deployed some depending on the business model, deployed some pilots or

maybe has some early some early revenue from some different types of customer segments, how what is CAC and how what does it actually look like to be able to measure it and utilize it in the way that you're speaking?

Yeah, I mean, CAC can be calculated in many different ways, but ultimately it's what does your organization have to pay to get a customer reliably. Um can be calculated by looking at your your sales costs and your marketing costs, like the head count that you have, the campaign spends that you have, the

initiatives that you're investing in, the tech layer for your for your go-to-market as well. This can all become part of a, you know, a big CAC calculation, and that's the one that matters. Um, but for teams that are diagnosing how they're going to market, CAC can often be broken down into what's your marketing contribution to

revenue, and then what's the marketing cost divided by that number. And that's going to give you a customer acquisition cost for marketing channel. And similar to sales with outbound, so you're really looking for an heuristic for efficiency. And I think what's more important than ultimately CAC, like we said, was the payback period.

If it costs you $3,000 to acquire a new customer, how long does it take for your revenue on that customer to pay it back? Um, and that's going to allow you to see how quickly you can move with certain investments.

Some I think some something that would help um, really drive this concept is if you could uh, bring uh, an example of uh, a company that you've worked with where they transitioned from either um, when you started working with them to uh, you know, to to where you're at now in the relationship, but

what is a So, what does it look like for a company to actually have a handle on this? Like I've I've worked with a number of companies that are much earlier stage or just trying to figure out like anything, like doing literally anything to to during a day to like talk to people that might be a

customer or figure something out about uh, about your market. And in that environment, you know, you don't have like here's the CRM, here's the SOP you need to to follow to do this. And like you know, you don't have these like repeatable processes, so there's not a lot of um, there's data in different places,

there's inconsistency of data. So, you can for the sake of it, I think if you wanted to in those situations be like, yeah, this is what our CAC is. But you know, at what stage of an and and you know, maybe not investment stage, but just like what uh, stage of maturity in a company can you actually

sit down and say, you know, we have a CAC. You know, do you need like X amount of CRM organization, X amount of marketing spend, X amount of, you know, whatever it is. I don't know. Like you know, at what point can you actually say you have that?

Such a great question cuz I mean there's a certain amount of data you need for this to be usable and to be relevant. And I'd say you're looking for at least 10 million in sales so you can really start to look for patterns. Because CAC is not going to be the same for

your one ICP cluster. And if you're addressing different kinds of utilities or if you're addressing corporate buyers and utilities separately, that's going to be a very different CAC. Um and so when this becomes useful and usable is when you can start to segment your pipeline.

And you can say let's look at it in terms of the kinds of customers that we have. They're all in that very different buying patterns. Um and they'll have different decision makers that are part of that process. And that'll be maybe the first dimension you want to look at the CAC and split it

by so you can understand. And then once you've done that, you can then also look at the channels because the cost to get your founder to an event, let's say you're closing a lot of deals uh with the founder, which is often what gets a company to series A, right?

You've got this really visionary, charismatic, uh deeply knowledgeable expert that's led the company often quite heroically to get them to that point. That's great, but that's not scalable by nature of, you know, how that's sourced. So what you want to start doing is you want to start looking at which of our deals were founder sourced

and how long did those take to close? Which of the deals were sourced by either a first hire in sales or an outbound SDR in sales? How long did they take to close? How much investment did they take? So, those are distinctions that are needed for CAC to be a useful number.

Uh because of course you can imagine a blended number, different channels, different go-to-market teams, different segments, it's not really going to be helpful. Well, is there is is there a company that you've worked with that um you know has gone from like when you started engaging with them, there was not any consistency, there wasn't any clarity

into this, and then you went into uh you know after a few months or however long of work, you know it became clear like what what types of things were they lacking and what types of things did you build?

Yeah, exactly. I mean there's one that you know selling into oil and gas, and they started off with a very strong not a founding sales team, but one of the first hires of the sales team from the industry, has an incredible network, has an incredible black book, can speak the language, lives and breathes the

industry. Fantastic. A very profitable source of business for that company. But then as they try to scale as they try to hire outbound SDRs, and they started to spend money on paid media, that equation really started to change.

And that was the first signal that for this company to keep growing, there needs to be a an honest look at why these new channels are not converting at the same rate. So, at first you look at the type of conversations they're having, right? It's it's an unfair advantage to this original hire who was

brilliant at his job. But then you look at the the outbound SDRs, um and this is part of the work that we do with them. They simply don't have the context or the intuition about where the market is to have really powerful conversations with the buyers, right? And that was that was being reflected in the lower

conversion rates and the lower response rates. So, what can you do about it, right? Like how can you take this um this this legend of a sales leader and bring that knowledge into the team. So, they're operating at least at a much higher level, even if they're not operating at the same level.

Um, and the best structural change and approach the best sort of paradigm shift that we're seeing This is across grid tech, uh, climate tech, like water is equipping those more junior or more new members of the team equipping them with a a source of information that's going to equip them and you know, that's what

some people are calling signals. Some people are calling it just like market intelligence. You'll often have these market analysts at companies. And their job is to feed the teams with the context behind a lead's position. So, not just going out to someone saying, "Hey, this is what we do. We'd love to talk to you and have a

conversation about buying our product." But, rather going to that same company and understanding that in the background there's a new facility that's being deployed. Meanwhile, that same company has a sustainability target to reduce emissions by X percentage. And if you see those two events together, you can actually go to them with um, a really informed first touch

point, right? And that's what a sales leader who's from the field is doing intuitively anyway. They just know that that's good sales. And they have the context to be able to pull on their own conversations with other people.

And so, what you need to do if you want to scale with a team around that leader is you need to give them the same information, right? You need to give them the same timing. So, so, um, does this look like in in order to to actually do this, does this look like, um, just taking everything

that's in the sales leader's head and putting it into a document, putting it in paper, like put it like creating an onboarding experience, you know, what types of things are we talking? And practically, you could do that and you should probably do that, but it's not repeatable again, right? So, you can take a snapshot of that person's brain,

which would be wonderful uh for us all to have, but you need to find a way to take what's in their head and build um observable patterns, right? So, like let's say you're selling something to improve the transmission line efficiency for utilities.

If you're selling like dynamic line rating, which is you know, ways of offsetting the inefficiencies of long distribution lines and weather events and these kinds of challenges that utilities are faced with. If you take the knowledge that typically when there's a rate case, when there's a spike in the losses of distribution that the

utilities are are facing, that normally leads to a good sales conversation. That's what you would call you'd call that a category of a signal or an archetype of a signal. Meaning that whenever you spot that for your product, that's going to be a relevant signal. So, that's your first step is to sort of put a flag in the

ground and say this is something we need to keep watching. And then the next step is to go and you can use many ways to do this. You can build this um with an LLM or you can build it with your own web scraper is to go out you can also employ humans to do this is to

go out and go harvest those signals and to match them to people that are matching your target market, right? Okay, so so then so then we're saying uh one of the the the original seeming the question CAC is structurally high in this space and one way to reliably get after it uh get after that high acquisition cost is

to understand uh buying signals in the space and communicate that effectively uh throughout throughout the team for throughout the growth team. Yeah, and giving them the this the so what's, right? Give them the next step. Like, okay, so you've observed this, you found someone that has a problem.

What could you say to them that would help them in that situation? You know, what would actually be contextually relevant for them to hear? And and you labeled it market intelligence? Like a like a playbook or something? Is that what we're talking about?

Yeah, I mean I've seen I've seen sales analysts do this role. I've seen SDRs do this role. I've seen VPs do this role. So, I think it's one of those things that um as the technology gets better and it is getting better very quickly, it's becoming more of a centralized function, but right now it's one of

those odd jobs that are passed around the organization. Cool. So, uh one of one of the other things I was wondering around this theme is that uh there's a lot of different business models inside of what we could call clean tech climate tech. And when we say CAC is structurally high in this space,

are you seeing it that uh let's let's let's keep business model let's hold it constant. Let's say just to B2B SaaS. But let's say a B2B SaaS that's not technically clean tech or a B2B SaaS that is clean tech uh somehow.

You know, are is is the is is the one operating in the clean tech space going to uh likely have a higher CAC just because of of the customer they're selling into? You know, why like is Yeah, uh so so is is CAC in clean tech structurally high uh you know, holding business model

constant or does it fluctuate with business model? Great question. I I would break it down into two main components or ingredients that kind of affect this. The first is going to be yeah, the complexity of the technology. Like what's the depth?

How much has to be uprooted for your technology to be deployed? How much change has to happen? And yes, if you're selling into again, utilities, that change is typically very very high. Like just the complexity of the product and the risk associated with services to um a country or to a state.

So, there's that and with a lot of deep tech you have hardware and software integration and that adds another layer to that. And that another level of sensitivity and where things could potentially go wrong. All that risk adds to yes, more friction in the buying process, more due diligence required.

Which we feel as a go-to-market motion, we feel that in the sense that the conversion rates become lower or sales cycles go longer. So, that's first is complexity really of the sale. Um and then the second part is how are your procurement cycles shaped?

Like how long is a procurement cycle? How often does the buyer go to a point where they can actually buy this product? And this is I mean it it feels like a curse and a blessing at the same time cuz in clean tech you have policy interacting with procurement cycles.

And you have very, very rigid um buying processes, right? Feels like a feels like a curse cuz like doesn't matter how well you sell, doesn't matter how good your message is, how beautiful and sexy and efficient your product is.

If somebody can't buy it from you, nothing you say to them is going to change that, right? You have to wait the 18 months it takes for them to be ready to buy from you. And of course, if you're going out to say you have like your total addressable market, if you go out to 100% of them

and only 3% of them are able to enter a buying motion, of course you're wasting 97% of that outreach, right? Assuming that's sales activation outreach. So, that's the first problem. I mean we can see from those numbers if you have a limited sales team, which is always the case, you would want to direct them at the 3%

rather than the 97%, right? Um focus target, focus outcome. So, it feels like a curse because we have these outside um like policy um like utility procurement cycles, which are very, very hard to change, but it's actually a blessing because these are these are public signals. Like these are things that exist online. You can see

them in government dockets. You can see the resource planning from from different states. Yeah. Uh climate disclosure issues are all publicly available, right? So, when you have a um a breach in some kind of regulation, this is this is public.

So, what was previously actually slowing down our sales cycles, if we could just coordinate with what we're seeing up there, these become way more data points than you have in B2B SaaS. B- Uh you know, B2B SaaS and intent data, I don't know if you've played with that or if I'm I'm guessing some of the

listeners have come from a SaaS background. Mhm. They they call intent data, they call it um like hiring patterns and movements, which is you know, a strong indicator of what an organization is doing, but it's not an indication of a buying cycle. It's just an indication of a hiring pattern.

It's inferred that it might be buying intent, but it's not truly buying intent. Um and then even worse, if you go to like 6sense, Bombora, these kinds of intent providers, they're not providing intent. They're providing a guess at who might be researching a product. And again, researching a product is not a form of, "Hey, I need

to buy right now." So, we're lucky in cleantech. We don't have to these are very soft forms of intent. In cleantech, we can look at an actual rate case. So, we can look at an actual penalty that a company has experienced because of an emissions target being, you know, exceeded. And we know that

they have to act. This is a This is buying intent. Hey, wow, that's another great Yeah, you're really you're really saying some things today. That's a That's another really fascinating thing um that I think just clicked for me There are two things.

Uh I'll go backwards. It's the the one that you just said about how in a lot of clean tech spaces because of the nature of what it is legislation plays regulatory environments play a large role. It's something that we've spoken about. Something that this podcast has spoken to a lot of people about.

Regulatory environments uh have a lot to do with how clean tech grows and scales. And so understanding the relationship between Cuz it it it just connects to me something that feels uh disparate often. Which is you know so what policy so what legislation like it's just oh you you know carbon whatever like you can't emit so you're

we're going to find you or something and the oil company's like fine we'll pay like however much it you know it it costs and like we don't care. It's like a parking ticket. But to understand that because that stuff is publicly available it offers opportunity for scaling clean tech companies to have more specific um

information about about buying intent. I think it's really cool and that's a really awesome point that you made and then also to address is CAC structurally higher in clean tech across business models? Yes, because a lot of times what you're doing with clean tech company and this is you know a lot it's not like the rule but often

times you're going against status quo and in order to do and and and you're doing something that that that is going to initiate a decent change in a company which is a lot of times really difficult for a company to do cuz economically there's risk and like you're like you're saying that you know the the public

health factor and and things like this. So um so yeah those two points are and I'm going to I'm going to keep those. Well a lot a lot that I'm stealing from you in this in this episode. So um so that like the public change right like like working with like any product that's really really

really making a big difference is going to have to go up against status quo right? That's right. And that's such a big problem. Well hey, I I you I like to end these episodes with on on a positive note and we got some more things to talk about. I mean we only we only got a little bit

through all the questions I got. So you started to allude to a little a little bit talking about the buying signals. I want to go deeper on that in the next episode. I appreciate you ending it with you know, it's it it is a blessing and a curse but it is actually you know, a

really great thing cuz a lot of this information is publicly available where in a a lot of other places in the private sector it's not. Um so that to me is positive. That feels really good. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

We got we got something out there now both the good and the bad. Let's work with the good. That's right. Something something is is is going for a clean tech. That's that's positive. Oh yeah, but I appreciate this.

Um you know, it's it's really great. I'm glad that you agreed to do this. You got a lot of knowledge. You got a lot of wisdom that I think needs to be in the world and so you know, across the next few episodes we'll we'll extract it from your brain and we'll get it into

out out into the universe. So looking forward to the next one but thank you. Very kind of you. Thank you. Such a pleasure, man. See you soon. it. We'll see you soon.