Unlocking Grid Interconnection with Emily Moini, Product Manager @ Nira Energy

Oh, welcome. Today on the show we have Emily Boini. Emily is an early product manager at Nerra Energy. And if you haven't heard of Nerra yet, this is a good episode because we cover uh very slowly for me very fundamentally the basics of not only what NRA does uh but a lot about what goes into grid

management uh grid modification and the process of how uh different um renewable energy projects how they come online. So, this is a good episode for you if you uh are curious about the foundations of uh the grid and the state of where it's at. Uh we agreed to do uh follow-up episode uh to get deeper into the

specific technology of NRA because this was a a highle overview of what they do in the industry. So, uh very educational though uh if you're just getting familiar with grid modification. And as always, thank you to the partners uh Clean Techch Growth Lab. If you're looking to grow or go to market in clean

techch, they are the people to work with. And in any other industry, it is Craz Friends, the producers of this show. We expand on a lot of these topics in uh my blog and the newsletter. Um you can sign up in the description. But with that, I give you Emily.

Oh, welcome to another episode of the Grove. Thank you to our partners mentioned just before this and happy new year and same same problems with the mic, but it's a great new year. And what what better way to start off the year than a really awesome interesting conversation with a friend.

Welcome, Emily. Heck yeah. That's right. Me and Emily go way, way back. Um, but it was only recently that I learned um that Emily was working uh in clean techch in grid modification. And before I give too much away, uh, Emily, if you could give a brief introduction of yourself.

Yeah, happy to. And thanks for having me on the podcast. It's a huge honor. Um, I am part of the team at actually, let me give a quick kind of bigger picture context. Um, I am from New Jersey. Grew up on the east coast. Um, spent the past two years almost in SF working at a different

early stage climate tech software startup called Streamline. Um, happy to chat a bit about that as well. And then um the past few months I moved to New York to join the team at at Nerra um where I'm working on grid interconnection stuff as a um product manager kind of in a more forward

deployed role. So yeah. Did you always did you always uh see yourself as someone that was going to be uh in startups in tech in product or is that did that happen at some point where you said this is what I need?

Yeah, not at all actually. Um I would say I had a bit of a 180 on that. Um after graduating um when I was in college I was very strongly interested in working in consulting. I was doing all the things led a consulting club. I signed a consulting offer uh my senior year and

that was kind of my plan um after graduating. And then a month after I graduated, my start date for the consulting job that I had accepted got pushed back by I think it was 9 months. And at that point, I decided to kind of take a big step back um and reckon kind

of head on with the fact that I didn't really know what I wanted to do um in terms of like problems based in industry. Um, I ended up deciding to use that time to run a bunch of experiments. And by experiments, I basically did a few different internships um in different fields and

um spaces that I had a strong hypothesis that I like would be really interested in. Um, one of those internships ended up being at Streamline, which is my previous employer. Um, I joined that team kind of curious about climate, curious about startups. Um, and kind of once I got into that environment, um, was a really

like early stage team. I was the first business hire. Um, and six employee. It was just super clear to me like how much opportunity for growth there is um just being on such an early stage team and like the amount of ownership that I was able to take on and just opportunity for

impact like if it goes well you're creating all this value. Um I kind of like fell in love with with startups from from that experience. And what what do they do? um they work on uh accelerating the grant process for climate tech companies. Um so because of the inflation reduction act, hundreds of

billions of dollars were unlocked in kind of early 2020s 2021ish um for climate tech infrastructure innovation. Um and that funding kind of touched all verticals of climate tech from agriculture to carbon removal to um transportation, electrification, battery innovations. Um but all of that funding was kind of trickling down through um like from the

federal, state, local levels um in this really dispersed way. Um, so our goal with uh with Streamline was to one help people have a single place where they could go to find relevant grant funding resources and non-diluted funding more generally and then second um to help people save time and actually winning those grant applications. A lot of our

customers were um early stage founders where oh my god some of the stories were crazy. It's like people pulling like a week's worth of allnighters just to get this like DOE grant application out the door that is kind of like a makeorb breakak opportunity for whether they can continue their work. And our kind of

thesis was if we can help these like brilliant people spend their time actually researching and building the technologies that will help us reach our climate goals rather than like right crying over grant applications. like we think our world would be a better place.

It sounds like you guys were working really hard to streamline that process. That's right. Oh, well, what what was it that um so you were there two years, you said? Yeah, around Yeah, I think it was like a year and a half.

So, what was it that uh you experienced during that time? Um, yeah. What specifically are you thinking about? Well, I'm I I guess so you said you were uh the sixth hire. You said you were the first business hire. So, what uh what was it that um that you were owning?

What was it that you were working on? What type of growth did you see from when you started and when you left? Um when I first joined um I was really doing a little bit of everything. Um we were at this place where we were starting to close our first deals. I think the first contract we had closed

was within weeks of me joining. Um and we kind of had these design partnerships in place with some of our first customers. What that looked like was weekly meetings with these customers focused on a specific feature or product area that we're kind of like building directly with their um needs in mind. Um

and just getting like that really close feedback cycle of um of conversation from those customers um cycling back up to the um the iterations of the product that we're building. So, as all of that was happening, I was kind of working directly with our CEO, Helena, to um continue to like close our first

customers. And then um as our customer base grew, I became the owner of customer success on the team. So, I was the first point of contact for basically any new customer that um subscribed to Streamline. I would help onboard them. Um, I would be their resource as they like inevitably run into bugs and issues. Um,

and then also was their thought partner in kind of thinking about how they could continue to leverage the platform more. Um, how we could like grow a relationship with them and build the product to help them get more value from it. Um, so yeah, it's pretty interesting. Um, because I think there were a few pieces of that work. One was

figuring out like like I think a really big part of early stage work is that you're doing these you're building these processes out at a company for the first time ever. And when you're doing that um it's really hard to know what works until like something actually does work.

And then once you have that process in place um you need to figure out how to like scale yourself because in early stage company world there's always uh more to do than the resources meaning like the team size that set out to do it. Um, so a lot of kind of the stuff

that I did was okay, we have an onboarding call structure that works really well for people, but like the amount of time that it takes me to um like set up the platform for each one of these customers who's getting onboard is like way too long. How do we automate some pieces of that process so that we

can so that we can onboard more customers and grow our revenue um overall? Um but yeah, that's just one example. Um I could yeah dive into more but is this how you made um your way to uh product managing which is what you're doing now?

Yeah. Um I'll share a bit about like that transition. Um, and then I think it'd be helpful for me to share about kind of exactly what work I'm doing cuz I think it's it's a little bit different from a traditional product manager role. Um, but what I will say about kind of like

the work I did at Streamline versus what I'm doing at Nerra now is um I think being on the front lines um on the customer success side at Streamline, I became like a knowledge expert on the team about what customers needed, wanted, what wasn't working for them, what they loved, um what their sentiment

just generally is about the product. Um, and that knowledge is like, you know, when you're building out the product for the first time, which we like effectively were in our first year at Streamline, that that data about what customers want and need is like gold. Like you need to anchor all of your decision making

around that information. And so, um, that's all to say, um, I ended up like becoming really involved in shaping our product roadmap, um, at Streamline and kind of like that often looked like working side by side with the CTO to be like, okay, here's exactly what we're hearing from customers this week. Um,

you know, there's it's like a ruthless exercise of prioritization. there's like a gazillion feature ideas that people are like, you know, half-hazardly like mentioning in calls and um you have to kind of like sift through all of that noise that you're getting every single day and figure out like what are we going to laser focus our engineering

team's efforts on. What can we do in a week sprint or a two week sprint that's going to like really make a difference for our customers and allow us to close more um revenue. and we're just kind of like always sprinting on that process and trying to refine it. Um, but yeah, that's a long-winded way of saying like

I think through that like customer success type role and like getting to be um the face of the company for customers, I was like exposed to this art of like product building and this process of like figuring out, you know, it's part art, part science. How do you figure out exactly what is priority

number one to build? Um how do you build it in a way that's like filtering in um customer perspectives so that it's it's aligned with what people need? So so you're saying is it similar to NRA or is NRA different?

Um, yeah. So, what I'm doing at Nerra is definitely uh different from my previous role at Streamline and I think also different from like what a traditional product manager would do. Um, would it be helpful to give context to what Nerra does before what you do? I mean, whatever you think.

Um, yeah, I think that would be good. I So, what does what does Nerra do? Um so Nerra is working on interconnection which is the process that a um energy project has to go through in order to connect to the grid and receive power.

What is an energy pro project? Um so it is uh you can think of like a renewable energy um project like a solar farm or a wind farm. Um and then so those are like generation projects and then there's also large loads that have to go through a similar interconnection process to connect. Um, so if we zoom

out a little bit, the grid is this complicated system of energy inputs and outputs and the infrastructure that allows those inputs and outputs to flow through. The grid exists if working correctly in an equilibrium state where like very simply put all the energy that's being injected into the grid um nets out with the

energy that is being pulled from the grid. Um, and interconnection is this process that makes sure that if you're adding a new energy source like a solar farm or a wind farm um or like a nuclear facility, it's not going to cause overloads or like outages to the grid system because the total kind of like capacity of the

transmission infrastructure on that system is unable to handle it. Okay. Um, so that's and the other thing I'll say is in the same way that if you inject too much energy and power into the grid, then it can handle it cause overloads. Likewise, if you pull too much energy from the grid, um, it could

cause these types of imbalances um, and ultimately like outages on the system. Do do the do these instances occur already like they like they occur anyway? Um, what do you mean? How frequent how frequent does how frequently does it happen?

Um, like an overload. Yeah. Um, I don't know the exact statistics on that, but there are what's called reliability criteria that are outlined by um, an entity called NERK. Um and NERK I believe stands for National Energy Reliability Council, but they basically um yeah they they outline a set of um criteria that um all of like the grid

operating entities across the US have to meet. Um there's um there's 14 categories within those reliability criteria. Um and each of those categories cover like a different aspect of um of what's required to ensure a reliable grid that doesn't have outages.

Okay. So So then so then where where does Nerra fall into that? Um because what I'm in my head it says say I have a solar farm and I want to build it. I want to install it, whatever. And when I go to um connect it to the grid, there's a bunch of steps

that I have to go through in order to get accepted. A bunch of rules and regulation, a bunch of technology I need to use to have it be regulated. So yeah, what does NER do you guys streamline that process or you know how does that work?

Yeah. So, picking up on what I was talking about before with like the NERK reliability criteria, there's like these 14 categories. They include everything um from like the reliability of like the physical facilities where you connect the projects to even like the communication systems that are used to coordinate um grid infrastructure decisions. You

can imagine like there's all these different entities that you know need to communicate. But of those 14 categories, Nerra Nerra's work is explicitly focused on one of them which is transmission planning. Okay. Um, and transmission planning is the process of making sure that like the physical, if you can think about it as

like the pipes and wires of the system like have enough capacity in them um to handle the amount of power that's going to flow in and out of it. Um, so if you think about the grid, it's not a system of pipes, but like if it was, it's like and you want to put like 100 gallons of

water flooding through those pipes. Transmission planning is like answering the question um like do you have enough if a pipe's big enough to handle like a 100 gallons of water? If that makes sense. But we're not talking about water here. We're talking about like Yeah. Yeah.

power. Um, and the amount of power that can like flow through all of the lines and conductors and like physical elements within the grid. Does that make sense? So, is this a physical product that you guys use to um to relay that information?

Um, yeah. So, what NRA So, that's what transmission planning is. What NRA does? Um, we do a few different things, but our main work is in partnership with renewable energy developers. So, these are the the companies that are building solar farms and wind farms and nuclear and whatnot and looking to connect them

to the grid. Um, and renewable energy developers need to apply to interconnect their project to the grid. um when they plan it out. That process looks like submitting an interconnection application and then the grid operator within your region will um run what's called a power flow study to basically evaluate um like that question we were

asking before like if you want to put 100 gallons in, do we have like the pipes and stuff to handle those 100 gallons? that study process takes it the whole thing end to end um can take in the range of like four years and once you get through that whole study process and you decide that you're going

to not like drop out of it which I can there's a number of reasons why you might drop out which I can talk about basically at the end of that process you get to sign an interconnection agreement and you've like been greenlighted to actually build your But I mean over the course of four years, I

would imagine that uh if like say there was a study done in year one of whether or not the grid could handle this type of product project if it takes four years for it to get approved, wouldn't that change? Like wouldn't the results I mean I don't know what the rate of change is with the you know with the

grid with loads and things like that but I feel like my question is like does that research become obsolete by year four by the time they're greenlighted? Um, not in general. No. Um, yeah. I think maybe if I can finish explaining what NRA does, then go back to like, yeah, I'll explain what Nerra does and

we can go back to like zooming out of the process and talking about how it might work and not work. Um, but that's the process. That's the interconnection process. It's like this four-year thing. It's a big deal. And by the way, you have to like pay millions of dollars along the way to continue

through this process. Um there's like deposits that you have to pay as a developer um to show your commitment and that you're not going to like, you know, drop out three years in. Um, basically what NRA does is, um, help developers understand what their likely outcomes are of that study process up front

before they actually like submit an interconnection application. Um, so we basically have a heat map that shows you all of the different nodes across the grid where you could connect potentially a new renewable energy project. And then basically um if you click on any of those nodes, you can see how much injection capacity. So the amount of

power that you could and energy that you could inject into the grid today at that location without causing some sort of overload. Um, and the other big piece of this is that at least on the generator side, meaning projects that are creating energy and injecting energy into the grid. Um, you as the developer have to pay for the

cost of any transmission upgrades. meaning like if there's a um new line that needs to get built, a new um transformer um that needs to you know be replaced, any of those things that need to happen to prevent overloads from happening you have to pay for and that can be like a lot of money like hundreds of millions

of dollars potentially. Um, so Nero helps you see like a how much injection capacity is available upfront at these locations and then b if I want to unlock more capacity, I'm going to have to pay for some upgrades, how much am I going to have to pay in those upgrades? Um, so the the overall outcome of using Nerra

as a as a generation developer is being able to see um basically being able to optimize your site selection decision. So you can choose where to set your project um in a way that reduces the cost and also um increases your out your likelihood of success me because a lot of people don't actually make it through

the interconnection for your process. Um because like three years in they'll get hit with like a $500 million transmission upgrade that they didn't know about at year zero and then they're like wait suddenly my project no longer pencils. I need to abandon this.

But fascinating. Hey, thank you for walking through that. It's uh yeah I I hope that was uh possible to follow. Okay. Well, I well, I have a I have a few uh follow-up questions now that we've gotten all the way to the end and and one of them uh goes back to something at the beginning. So,

I'm curious within this understanding this high level understanding I assume of uh what NRA does. Um and it sounds so one of the questions is already answered. So um in order to help projects optimize their site selection, it is mainly a software product that they interact with.

That's right. That's okay. Okay. And then it is so it is not a hardware product that a company would utilize to install somewhere and then get a read. You guys collect the data, aggregate it, and present it. No. Yeah. So, we're just um producing uh software that helps you understand the basically get you that estimate of how

much would it cost for you to site this project? Um how much capacity is available up front. We have some other stuff that we do that helps with um making decisions once you're actually like in the queue which I can talk about and it's pretty awesome. Um yeah it's all software.

Okay. So well so it's all software and you know you can um hap happy to hear about the other things. I'm curious you mentioned uh this is different than uh a standard or typical understanding of a product manager. So I'm curious how Yeah. Okay. So I just explained what NRA does on the generator side working with

um with energy developers. I actually work on the data center side of things. Um, so I mentioned before that when we think about the grid system, it's a system of energy that's coming in, energy coming out. We need to study um the impacts of things that are like pulling energy from the grid as

well as things that are injecting energy. Um so large load in the world of transmission which is like um when you think about the energy grid in the US transmission lines are like the highways of the energy system. They're like those super big things that you see next to the highway with like massive lines and huge

um towers. And then distribution refers to like I don't know I guess you would call them like the local street the neighborhoods like okay um but basically all of Nerra's work is at the transmission level and all the planning that needs to happen for those like highway type um lines. Um but basically at the transmission level um

you need to study the impacts of generators and then the impacts of what are called large loads and large loads are just any um any source that's pulling a large amount of energy from the grid today. Um, you can think in general large loads include like big manufacturing facilities where there's just like a ton of energy that's needed

to keep everything running there. Um but today the biggest large loads are actually data centers. And this is like the hot topic within the world of um of energy grids and honestly like energy in general today is that we have so many new data centers um of unprecedented size that are coming online um to

support all of the new AI workloads um that have sprung up over the past few years that we're we're in a reliability crisis right now, meaning that we actually don't have in many areas enough generation to serve like all of those large loads. But anyways, that's an aside. We're in an energy crisis. But um what I work on at Nerra

um is our set of tools to help large load developers navigate interconnection. So in the same way that um a generation developer has to have their project studied to figure out all the impacts it will have to the grit system if it connects if you're a large load meaning if you're like a data

center developer um you have to submit your project and have it go through an interconnection study to figure out all the impacts as well. So we have like a kind of parallel set of products um to help with data center developers but this is like a very compared to generation this is like

a much more nent space um all of like the processes around studying large loads and their impacts are historically have been really decentralized um every utility and there's hundreds of utilities in the US um kind of has their own it's kind up to them how they want to study these projects. And so there's

not one like way to do it. Um and so uh what I've been working on at Nerra is like figuring out in this world where so much is changing many many many gigawatts of new large loads are requesting to connect the cues are like piling up. Um no one actually knows like exactly what

projects are in that queue. Um but everyone's trying to figure out how much power and what's called withdrawal capacity is available for those large loads to pull from. Um how do we like build a product in NRA that that works for them? So um I would say like to your question what is my role? Um I think

traditional product manager that role revolves a lot more around you have an existing product how do you improve the performance and outcomes of that product. Um, so as an example, I always think about like someone is like the product manager for Facebook Marketplace and their job is to make sure that the revenue from Facebook Marketplace

grows like quarter to quarter, year over year, and they have a set of decisions they can make about if they want to like add a new feature or um fix this like bug that's been coming up. What are the impacts? How do you make like good decisions about those things? Um, what I'm working on right now is developing

like new product. Um, and a lot of like more focused deployments where it's like we have one kind of data center developer customer and we're trying to figure out how do we build a solution like 0ero to one that solves for their specific problem in hopes that over time either that contract will like grow a

ton and as well like that product that we've built for them will become useful for like all of the other kind of data center developer customers that that are following. So it's a lot more focused um on like single customers. And then the other piece is that in order to be kind of in the loop about what data center

developers need like we're figuring out our hypothesis right now about what that like ideal set of products is. I have to um like be in the loop and involved in all of those kind of conversations with data center developers that we're having across the company, which means that I've been basically owning all of the

sales for data center developer work as well. Um which has been a fun challenge. Um there's so much that I've been learning and humbled by and um just like eager to learn about with what it takes to kind of like figure out a sales process for the first time um when you haven't there's no like kind of what's

the word playbook in place that you can follow. So that's that's what I'm working on. Does that kind of make sense? So is there um small question. So large load projects is mainly what you focus on not necessarily data centers although data centers fall into that bucket.

Um yeah so the vast majority of large loads that are connecting today are data center. Okay. So, we've been mainly focused on working with data center developers, but then there's a handful of other folks that have been interested in our product um uh that are building like mainly like manufacturing facilities. Okay.

Is like kind of the other big bucket. Is there a threshold where a particular development is large load? Yes, there is. Um I think that threshold varies depending on the region that you're in. This is a big theme in um grid like stuff is that it's not like the grid is like managed centrally in one place

across like it's not like the US grid is one very managed entity. There's a few different regions within the US where um there's like these nonprofit entities called ISOs that manage the market um for interconnection and basically like are responsible for setting reliability criteria that um need to be hit. So that's all to say. It

varies, but I think it would be like in the range of like 30 to 50 megawws for for for for this region or as a general in general. I'm going to guess like between 30 and 60 megawatt like the line.

Let's let's say let's guess um more Yeah. more of a uh a philosophical question for you because you guys are um kind of an epitome of this phenomenon which is the Trojan horse of AI relative to climate tech. So um you know there's there's a lot of different opinions around uh how quickly and you know the

ethics around the development of AI and all these things but something that can't be argued against is how uh how much money is flowing into clean techch around energy and grid modification and these things because of AI. So do you have any thoughts about that phenomenon that's happening?

I think you're right. I think the growth of demand for power from AI is like forcing a lot of really important innovations um to help us get clean energy onto the grid more quickly. Um, I feel like there's another question in there which is like maybe separate and if this isn't the direction you're going, let me know.

But there's this other question which is like should we be like hustling to try and get all this um new these new AI data centers onto the grid in the first place? Um, I think there's a lot to unpack there, but my kind of at least if we anchor it on like career decisions

and what should I work on? Um, my philosophy on this has always been like um like to focus on the the part of the problem that is more like solvable. And I actually feel like the question of should we have more AI, should we have less is like overall I feel like it's coming. like if

I'm I guess there's a way that we could try and like reduce the like innovation around AI deployment but there's like a lot of really important upsides I think to that technological advancement happening around like just to name a few breakthroughs in healthcare um I think like helping like our whole economy grow

and move more quickly um but then obviously yeah there's like this huge cost around um the amount of power that we need and also the amount of water that's needed to um help these AI data centers chug along. Um, that's a long-winded way of saying like my philosophy on this is I think it's

coming and we need to freaking like figure out a way to provide enough power for all of the energy demands that are on the grid right now and are upcoming, including AI, including like all of our homes and offices and um yeah, there's a lot of power that we need and I'm kind

of like how do we get more renewable energy to the grid rather than like how do we stop innovation from happening as quickly as it is. Well, like like you said, there's there's a lot to unpack and and unfortunately we're coming up on time and I feel like we're just scratching the surface on um this whole space, you

know, what you guys are building, what you're doing personally. And so I have two last questions that are my favorite um to ask. And the first is what is the biggest hurdle that you feel like you're facing right now? And how is it also an opportunity What was the second part?

How is it also an opportunity? Oh yeah. The biggest hurdle that we're working on we're working through right now with the data center stuff is the the projects that are in the queue right now for large load like waiting to connect to the grid are not public. So, no one knows what that like stack of

projects is that have applied to interconnect but haven't yet received an interconnection agreement. Um, and in addition to that, there's a lot of speculation happening, meaning that because like no one knows what's going on. There's like so much scarcity of power, a lot of data center developers are like submitting interconnection requests to like five different

utilities for the same project. Um, and so that just creates like even more confusion because there could be like a ton of projects in the queue ahead of you, but like are those projects real? Are they just like the fifth version of like the same project that was submitted in other utilities?

The short answer or the short way of kind of saying what I just described is it's really hard to know what projects are in the queue. Um, and when you think about what we do at NRA, we're helping people understand how much transmission capacity is available on the grid. That information about the projects in the queue that are like

going to be built ahead of you is like a critical assumption going into that um going into that like modeling process. Um, so it's a huge challenge. Um, but it's one that everyone in the grid is facing. Like no one is immune to it. Um, there's an opportunity for us because if you can be the developer that has a

hypothesis about projects that are in the queue ahead of you. Um, that could come from conversations that you're just like having with folks in the industry. A lot of developers just have so many projects that they're building that like modeling and accounting for like their own projects that are in the queue is

like a big deal in itself. Um and yeah, and then there's like additional work that like we're doing to figure out um how to give people that clearer picture. But um there's an opportunity for us because if everyone's struggling um we're thinking about empowering people with um these like custom analysis tools where you can

basically test your own hypotheses, plug in additional data centers that you suspect are going to be coming online and then see how that impacts capacity at like locations that you're trying to build at. So little teaser into what we're working on.

Well, we cover you're trying to model cute load. That's right. Then then you hit up Emily. We covered a lot of uh ground, a lot of different places. Uh still just scratch the surface, but within all of this, uh I'm curious what inspires you to keep building.

Oo, I definitely get a lot of inspiration just from being outside in nature. that kind of time outside um touching grass per se is like what re-energizes me. I'm a big runner, so I would add to that having community around being outside and just being, you know, connected to the earth and um

yeah, the world around you that definitely is like a source of inspiration alongside I will add um just having really I gain a lot of inspiration from some other like leaders in the climate tech world that I Think um in particular with some of these climate tech startups you know near is a

software company but um a lot of climate tech innovation is physical world like it's hardware and a lot of hardware you know requires a huge amount of upfront capital and usually is like going to take a long time to figure out. It's going to be like a 10 20 year project and initiative and I've been

lucky to meet some of the folks that are leading the charge in some of those company building efforts and um yeah like you have to take huge risks to have the impact that you that you want to have. So I think that's pretty inspiring.

Nice. Well, so is this conversation Emily. So, thank you for this. Anyone if anyone uh is interested in following along or connecting, what's the best way to do that? Sorry, what was the question? We need to cut this part.

I was saying if anyone else is interested in connecting or following along, what's the best way to do that? Oh, um you can find me on LinkedIn, Emily Mini. I don't have many other social medias. So, good. LinkedIn is great. LinkedIn is awesome. Well, Emily, thank you so much.

Um, I'm excited for the next one. I have like three trillion more questions for you, but I appreciate you walking through um very educational about uh where the industry is at, where Ner fits in, where you fit in, uh, and a little bit about your personal journey. So, uh, I look forward to the next one.

Yeah. Thanks so much for having me. This was super fun. You got it.