Energy & AI with Zainab Gilani, Research Associate @ CleanTech Group

Hello, welcome. Today on the show we have Zainab Galani. Zainab is number three in the series with Cleantech Group that I'm lucky enough to do. We're expanding on their Global 100 report that they released at the end of last year.

Zainab wrote the section on energy and power. And if you're thinking like I was, energy and power, that seems like a massive a big topic. How do you even report on something like that? How do you talk about it? Well, if you stick around for long enough, you'll hear that she she breaks it down

into a framework that at least for me, hopefully for you, really makes sense. And I'm very able to understand this industry, this sector of very differently. And it's important because there's all this information happening around solar, around wind, especially with this administration, and the need for power and grid management with data centers. So, if there was ever a time to

discuss and to improve your ability to understand this sector, I believe now is the time and Zainab helped you get there. Thank you as always to our sponsors, Cleantech Growth Lab. If you're looking to grow in cleantech, they are the people to work with.

And the producers of this podcast, Kraze and Friends. With that, I give you Zainab. Hello, welcome to another episode of The Growth Show and to the sponsors mentioned just before we hit record. Without them, it would not be possible to do awesome things like episode three in this series of Cleantech Growth.

Today we have Zainab. Welcome. Hey Blake, it's nice to finally be on the podcast with you. Yes, special shout out, not only for your blazer because I think that's so But you are the reason that all of this started.

Uh I've been saying it I've been saying it in episodes that aren't even with you guys, but I read the report, your year-end report and loved it, and uh reached out to you specifically because energy and uh data centers and all of this talk, you know, it's just so it's so mainstream right now in in a lot of

places where it usually isn't, and I think there's a lot of people talking about it, which means there's a lot of different meanings and and opinions going around, and so um I think you're you know, your piece is really great, and I'm excited to to really get down to what's actually happening, so we have

some consistent narratives in the space. Uh before we get there, uh can you give a brief introduction of yourself? And Yeah. So, we can kind of take this in a couple ways. So, like I'm an energy and power associate at Cleantech Group. Um so, I cover a wide variety of sectors within energy and power, but like I

didn't necessarily start off, you know, covering energy and power. I had like a interesting background in undergrad where I studied physics and English, which is like a bit of an unusual combination, but I was always interested in sustainability, so I spent some time working in like the circular economy space, and then like I gradually

transitioned to energy and power once I was at Cleantech Group just cuz I saw how much innovation and how much exciting stuff was happening there. Wow, that's Okay, so this is a question I had for later, but you just teed it up, so I'm going to say it now. What If If you did physics and English, I assume

that means, you know, you enjoy writing, I mean, your research you produce, so writing something you're passionate about. What do you feel like, uh aside from the insights and the data and the facts and markets and investing, whatever, like what do you think is the the purpose or the role that um storytelling plays in this space? No,

it's honestly I think one of the biggest assets I have, and like I feel like I think that storytelling is incredibly undervalued in a lot of spaces, especially when it comes to like really technical language. It's really easy to get really excited about the numbers, which I do, but I think framing where to

place the numbers is also really important and like why they're why it's kind of easy to get lost in the statistics. I think when it comes to storytelling, like people can get really excited about the challenge. Like obviously the challenge of energy is huge and we can go deeper into the numbers of like, you know, how much

carbon dioxide is being released and like what the you know, what the challenges of fossil fuels are. Um but it's kind of hard to get as excited about maybe the numbers when it comes to like economics and like financing and like why is it important to talk about these other things that maybe don't get

as much attention as they should. So maybe bringing those like other uh less popular topics to the to the light and making them a little bit more popular and making them easy to access and making, you know, some of those conversations clearer, I think is really important when it comes to just like

scaling uh scaling these different systems where um a lot of these infrastructure projects and energy projects can be really complex. So how do you kind of boil things down to like um the critical aspects that need to be addressed? Yeah. Where without I mean, you can shout out names. That's okay with me. Who do you see in the space of

clean tech storytelling? Who do you think um you know, doesn't do a a great job and and why? Who doesn't do a great job or who does do a great job? No, who doesn't? Cuz I'm curious what, you know, cuz uh like we talked about, you know, I feel like you guys the the

the reports that I've read, the things I You know, you guys present the stories in ways that are digestible. Conversations I've had so far on the podcast, it makes a lot of sense how you guys discuss things. So what are attributes of of people in the space that don't do things uh as effectively, don't story tell as

effectively? Yeah, I maybe I I won't talk about like a specific institution or organization. I think as an industry historically, I don't think the nuclear industry has done a great job and you can tell kind of just like how the public sentiment has shifted.

Yeah. I think it's I think it's you know a lot better in recent times when it comes to the storytelling of like how we knew how nuclear will play a wider role in renewables and the future energy mix.

But I think there was a time where a lot of the conversations on the hazards of nuclear, the economics of nuclear, and the timelines of nuclear were just not articulated in a way that they should have been. Um and yes, there were some challenges within the industry itself, but I think they were exacerbated

potentially by poor storytelling and poor um and be basis and generally maybe poor marketing from the industry um given the fact that like I feel like generally now people have an idea that nuclear is going to be needed in the future and like try to strategize the best way forward to integrate it. But like a lot

of those conversations that we're having now, we weren't really able to have like 10, 20 years ago according to my colleagues just like based off of like the overall sentiment in the industry. So So, one more question before I think we dive all the way in is for you, had you always uh envisioned uh being clean tech

sustainability to some extent, you know, studying physics and and English and things or you mentioned being in the circular economy space for a second. Like did something Yeah, had that always been uh a vision of yours or did something happen at some point where Yeah, that's a really good question. Um so, I think I was always interested in

sustainability and in my mind I was like, oh like I kind of have this like vague technical background. Like I didn't do like the advanced labs and I didn't want to be like an engineer fully cuz I was like that's really hard and difficult and I knew I like didn't want to be responsible for the science, but I

wanted to kind of be adjacent to it just cuz I liked being in those environments and I liked talking to those people and just learning in general. Um so, I think I had thought that circular economy would have been interesting just due to like the waste and recycling challenges and the overall way that you can kind of see the

problem. Like you can see trash, you can see marine floating marine debris floating in the rivers, and you can see all these challenges with just like the waste infrastructure. It's like I feel like it's a lot more visible as opposed to maybe like carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. Um but the challenge I had

in that industry was basically I generally wasn't as excited about the technology over time. Like I think not in the way that energy and power where you have a lot of innovations in batteries and nuclear and different types of power generation. Um it was a little bit harder for maybe me to see like different types of materials

being used for plastic bags or different types of like drop-in replacements where like technology and innovation could scale in a way that it can in the energy and power side. So when I was actually at Cleantech Group, I was doing different rotations in different sectors. Um and I just like kind of like

going back into like my physics brain and like seeing how like oh like if you have electrons from coming from like you know natural gas versus like electrons coming from solar. Like the end user doesn't really care where it's coming from as long as it's you know um as long as they're getting like the end services

and the electricity that they need. And it's a little bit different from like the circular economy space where if like you're trying to find at least in my experience um like quick replacements, it's not necessarily as easy to scale. Yeah. All right. Well, we made it. So I see you you started you

started uh mentioning it a little bit. But the first thing that I want to know again this like very personally I mean I I would I would love uh a better understanding of just what we mean when we talk about energy and power. So like we have oil, gas, nuclear, renewables, like all these

different things like Yeah. Can can can we just level set? What do we like what what do we mean? What's the intro Yeah. What's the intro to energy and power? Um there's so much that goes into it and I think I kind of want to frame it as like let's just think about electricity for a

second, maybe before we're going to heat and the different types of fuels. So, I think, you know, you basically are just trying to transmit electrons from one place to another place to power like to power a certain product or manufacturing line or um something. And I think when we think about the different types of

technologies that can do that, there's a lot of ways to potentially, you know, spin a turbine uh to get the electrons flowing. And so, that's why we look at like a really broad range of sectors. So, everything from like geothermal, types of nuclear, fission, fusion. You also have renewables like solar and wind. Um but I think it's

really interesting to kind of think about like what are the more commercial technologies out there. So, solar and wind have been deployed to a pretty um a pretty large degree. And then you also have geothermal, that's a little bit more upcoming. We've seen lots of venture investments in that space. And then fission has been around for a

really long time. But like what's exciting in that space, you have these more modular reactors um that are being developed with different types of fuels, but also different types of ways to make it easier to standardize a process. And then you have fusion, which is a whole other beast where you're just trying to

take two isotopes of hydrogen, merge them together, and have a clean source of energy. Um so, that's on the power generation side. So, there's a lot that you can go when it comes to like think about when it comes to actually generating power. So, so all of this so far is just around

electricity. Like is a way to think about heat also just electricity? Like is everything electricity? Not everything's electricity, but I think electricity's like where it gets really interesting, especially when we when we go later into like the conversation about data centers. But there's also, you know, uh steel manufacturing, uh cement manufacturing, and district

heating. All of that requires energy, too, and that's heat. So, you can use different types of fuels, natural gas. You can use geothermal resources to um provide heat, and that's not necessarily going through the same process of like creating electricity.

You're just removing You're just taking heat energy from one source and directing it towards another. Okay. So, energy and power at the moment, if I understand what you're saying, I have broken into a first layer of understanding is electricity and heat.

Yeah. Mhm. Are Are there any other buckets to put it into to to understand at this level? think so. No, let's just keep it at electricity and heat. Awesome. Okay, that's super cool. So, so then uh further Okay. So, we have electricity and heat and then underneath electricity we said basically it's just the

generation of electrons and then the transfer of that electrons to a trillion different end use cases. And so, within that within that there's the bucket of generation, which is what you you laid out a lot of different Yeah, so Yeah, so power generation can be used potentially for heat or electricity, but I think electricity's where it gets

interesting just because then you kind of have to go into like the management of it, right? So, then you have to like include batteries and include transmission. So, say you have a nuclear reactor, right? You can use that nuclear reactor to produce heat or you can use it to produce electricity. Um Okay. Can

all of those things you listed do electricity or heat? Like solar, wind, coal solar and wind are probably more focused on electricity, but geothermal, natural gas, coal, um nuclear, they could be used for heat. I think fusion it gets a little bit tricky depending on like Well, that's fusion still a bit further

out depending on like the the way that you're capturing the energy. Um but yeah, there are a lot of different sources of power generation and a lot of different ways you can apply it. All right. All right, this is great. Thank you for for walking through this. So, we have uh electricity and heat and then to

generate both of them we have geothermal, natural gas, coal. Is there anything I missing? Geothermal, natural gas, coal. Oh, nuclear? Yeah. And then fusion is kind of on its own thing. Solar, wind are mainly electricity. Yeah, I would say mainly electricity.

All right. All right. Okay, cool. So then so then again in Okay, so this really helps to have these labels, to have these buckets uh from my understanding. So a lot of the conversation and and a lot of the development and all of these things have happen in two places. The generation with the advances in technology, the

different approaches to how to generate either the heat or electricity. And then like all the conversation about grid and grid infrastructure and distribution is the transfer of those electrons. Yeah. Okay. So is that a helpful way again for me to understand those two Yeah, and I think that makes a lot of sense. If you're thinking about like

industrial like glass and cement um and steel manufacturing, you need really high temperatures. So that's why like the heat generation is really important there. I'd say like over 600 700 degrees Celsius. And then for electricity, you're really just trying to either like you're either trying to like use heat to produce steam which spins a

turbine which creates electrons. And then those electrons get transferred. Oh, I see. Um and those electrons get transferred through the wires to where they need to go. Um obviously there's a lot of power infrastructure that you need to put in place to manage that system, but um yeah, that's essentially I think how a lot of

the way we think about energy and power is kind of laid out within our like internal taxonomy. So is there is is there any direct generation of heat? So you generate it and then transfer the heat like without electricity or Yeah. That's a lot of the like industrial manufacturing uses that.

Okay. Uh an intrusive question. Natural gas versus coal, are they both bad? They're both bad, but coal is much worse. Okay. All right, that's very I would say in terms of just like as As thinking about scaling future future technologies, I think natural gas has I've heard people say it was used as to

be like a bridge solution going from coal and like those type of fossil fuels to like potentially renewables, but it's been very long long bridge in a lot of cases in the way that we're we're using it for um many applications and I'm just concerned that we're potentially going to have an over-reliance on natural gas, but I'm

sure we'll talk about that when we talk about like the future energy mix in general. Okay. So, something again to to preface this entire conversation cuz that framework was really uh was really useful for me. Um something that I've been reading about is that there is so much focus on the new solutions, new new technologies like

renewables, the future of the planet, blah blah blah. We cannot ignore how reliant we still are on the fossil fuel infrastructure. And if we don't If if we don't bring attention to the ways that we need to successfully transition from those existing infrastructures to these new technologies, then it'll create uh I I think not only a lot of immediate

problems, but um it'll it'll delay uh like widespread adoption of renewable uh solutions. So, that's like that's something I've been reading about and I'm curious what you think about that. I mean, how what's No, I think that's 100% right and I think maybe that's why I wanted to talk and it's good that you

asked the question about like the difference between heat and electricity because it's a lot easier to use renewables for electricity and bring down the percentage of fossil fuels that are used to support electricity than it is to um electrify um heat. And that's like a whole other topic that we can get into that my colleagues and I are really

excited about, but in terms of like, you know, bridging the gap, I think that when you're thinking about electricity and producing electrons, it's a lot easier to try and try and expand the percentage of the pie or the size of the pie, that renewables um uh takes uh so that you can kind of

reduce your reliance on fossil fuels. And there's some like really great reports by the IEA in their kind of future of electricity report where they talk about how uh let's just use big, you know, picture examples where coal would be around 33% of like the electricity mix and like natural gas would be I want to say around 23% um and

renewables around 33%. And so they're saying that like potentially the renewables section can expand uh and rise over time while the natural gas may be relatively relatively the same um and then coal goes down. So I think once you're seeing renewables overtake coal in the percentage of the mix that's making up um electricity, I think that just kind

of shows like how much further we can go, especially as costs for renewables go down over time. So are you are you are you saying that there's Do you feel like there is sufficient conversation and sufficient attention to the the actual phasing out uh away from this infrastructure?

Yeah. Okay, so this is this we might be getting ahead of ourselves, but I think that when you're thinking about what is what what are the sources of energy that are growing, right? Or like where were the demand users that are growing? And like a big one is AI and data centers. And AI

and data centers require electricity and not heat. So because they're using electricity, I think potentially if AI and data centers were to scale and they were to scale and support renewables, I think that'd be a great thing. But if AI and data centers were to scale and also kind of um expand the infrastructure

that we have related to coal and natural gas and gas turbines, um I think that would be not in the best interest of our climate goals. Well, okay. Um okay. Well, I'm going to ask it anyway. So are you are you you know, ahead of ourselves, whatever.

So, data center's a whole thing. What you just spoke to, I think is very important. What What is What is your feel about the direction that we're going? Like, are data centers be Are Do we project them being reliant on energy sources that are positive impacts for our future or more more traditional? Yeah, I'm going

to speak optimistically. So, I think that according to the IEA, you know, they There's like a range of different scenarios for uptake, let's say by 2030. So, one estimate says that they may data centers may require around 800 terawatt hours of power. Another may Another scenario says that they may require 1,200 terawatts of power, right?

And this is a lot of power that's going to be required by sorry. Quick question. Can you help understand how much that is? Like, how much do I use? How much What is it to put it in perspective, like these This is the size of like countries. So, this is going to be like massive amounts

of energy for an industry center? No, sorry, not for data center, but like the industry as a whole. Oh, okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So, how do I put this in perspective? So, I think there's like a couple examples of like data centers that that are being built out that can potentially require up to 1

gigawatt, and 1 gigawatt can essentially power um basically cities in certain cases. Um So, these are very very small cities in certain cases. So, this is a lot of energy. But, yeah, so, kind of on the topic of data centers, it's I'm optimistic in the sense that if data centers can support the development of

technologies that will further the acceleration of renewables um and energy-efficient processes, I think that would be a good thing. Like, if they are able to be a customer for earlier stage technologies or certain technologies that didn't have proper markets before, um I think that is one of the benefits of data centers. Um

but the on the other side of that is data centers and AI, the whole industry itself. I think, you know, there have been estimates that say that around 65% of like new gas turbines are being um are are being kind of uh What what do I want to say? Um 65% of new natural gas turbines are being used

for the data center industry. And so that's not necessarily um a good thing if all these orders are being tied to like one specific industry that's grow- growing so quickly. So I think that's where the my personal concern is in terms of just like um expanding renewables uh and clean tech versus um going deeper into like the

fossil fuel infrastructure. Do you Do you have a take on what direction it's going to go? I mean, you said you said you're being optimistic, so that's Am I optimistic? But like realistically, where do Realistically, I think because they're trying to scale as quickly as possible, there's going to be a lot more

infrastructure that is going to rely on diesel generators and fossil fuels, unfortunately. I hope that there are plans in place to transition the sources of power to to renewables and nuclear in the long term, but I think in the near term, depending on if these organizations are able to procure the gas turbines and also

um procure the energy that they need if they're able to do it. Um Mhm. I I think there's going to be challenges with uh trying to get the energy that they need uh from renewables, depending on the region that they're in. So like I think Texas is like a good example because you also

see um data centers that are partnering with different organizations. Like I think Google announced it yesterday that they're partnering with total and total energies to procure solar power. And that's just because like in Texas it's easier to have like the land in the space. Um Interesting. And generally generally easier permitting to to get

some of these projects up and running. So So I mean or if I were to put myself in the position of establishing a data center and I was somebody that had trillions of dollars and somehow, you know, was in big tech and needed trillions dollars more, I would want to make the investment of

setting up a data center where it has reliable energy infrastructure because then an outage would be disastrous again from my perspective. So, is it Does it really just come down to how reliable a certain source of energy is? Like because certain approaches to energy generation that are technically more renewable or sustainable just don't

have the the stability that fossil fuels do? Does it really just come come down to that? Yeah, that's a really good question. I think it depends on the overall system that you're working with. So, like renewables can be like a great source of power for data centers if you have all the all the

kind of equipment that can help manage that power, right? So, for renewables like solar and wind you have fluctuating loads. So, if you have the batteries and the power infrastructure equipment and all the kinds of tools that you need to make sure that that's a stable source of power. Like that would make a lot of

sense to power a data center. Um and so, yeah, that's that's one aspect. And then I think with like nuclear there's like a little bit more of like um providing stable stable base load power just in general. So, that that energy profile looks a little bit different. Um that provides a little bit more of a

consistent output. Um so that would that would make a lot of sense in certain areas too, where data centers need potentially like very large quantities of power, um, but they may not necessarily have the land available to them. Okay.

Uh, all right. So, we did it like you said, we got ahead of ourselves, but that's okay cuz my curiosity feels, uh, satiated for the moment. So, what I wanted what I was what I was hoping to do, um, before then so we can do it now is just overall, uh, cuz we went through the

framework of thinking, you know, we talked a little bit, uh, about like how to understand it, but now what's happening in the space, you know, like just you can take it and you talk about a lot of stuff in the report, but just from your perspective, what is relevant?

I mean, data center is obviously the conversation is relevant. What else is going on? Yeah, I think broadly speaking, data centers are relevant, um, but I think it when we're talking about renewable deployment, I also want to talk a little bit about like the different dynamics that's happening globally, um, and maybe compare a little

bit what's happening in China to the US cuz I think it you can't really talk about renewable deployment without talking about China. Um, and that's twofold. One is because they're one of like the largest deployer deployers of renewable energy, um, and then the second is like the work that they've been doing with lithium-ion batteries to

bring those costs down over time is going to be really important for scaling renewables across the globe, um, cuz it'll just make a lot of these systems more cost-effective in general. Um, so that's be maybe two things that I wanted to talk about on like just the dynamics.

Right. So, you said China, what was the other one? Uh, China China? Yeah, so basically both No, it's a good point because China is basically A, the number one, you know, um, country that's deploying the most renewables Okay. like the rest of the world and because they're doing so much work on lithium-ion batteries, they can help

facilitate other regions of the world, potentially emerging economies to help integrate renewables into their energy mix if it becomes more cost-effective Okay. to integrate renewables as opposed to going directly to to fossil resources. No, that's true. kind of doing a lot in regards to like moving around pieces and changing the dynamics of the energy landscape globally. All

right, so then so then I I have these two written down. We could do them both then. Quick question for you. So I had I had a guest two or three weeks ago. His name is Yang Bo. He's one of my friends.

He knows so much about nuclear. It's it's it's amazing. And one of the things that he said that is tied specifically to like using different histories of nuclear in different in different countries. One thing that's tied to the the success of nuclear deployment in a country is the use of building the same

kind of nuclear plant over and over again because then you then you fail quickly. You learn what works and then you can arrive at a at a business model or a version that that works and then you can just do that over and over again. Something that the US apparently did not do was that. They

they did a lot of bespoke designs and that's that that really halted them. But something that China again apparently, which is why I wanted to ask you, did is that they did do that. They they they found like one way to do it and then they just they just kept doing it. So is that a

part of the conversation at all about nuclear in China? I think that's a part of like the larger conversation when it comes to scaling technologies in general where it's like you find models that Let's do that first one then. You find a model that works and then you can scale. You can do that. But yeah, to

your point like if you can standardize and China's been doing that so well when it comes to nuclear and with so many other technologies and then scaling that like that is so important and it comes just basically to the point that you mentioned like you're not necessarily changing everything about the technology. You find a technology that

works. You find a financing a financing model that works, and then you kind of see how it works to develop that site and like work with the larger community, and then you can kind of like copy and paste that model for nuclear, but for other technologies as well.

Okay. So, then so then how So, when we say China and we say deploying renewables, what what goes into that that topic? Yeah. No, that there's so much that goes into that. I think mainly, you know, solar and wind are one of the big ones where if you're looking at it from like

a numbers perspective, like the estimates for 2025 are still coming in for like the exact specifics, but if you're saying that you know, China deployed 300 gigawatts of solar and like globally the solar, you know, deployment was like 360 or like a little bit over, you know, 370, like China's taking up like the China

has deployed the majority of solar. Why? Yeah, no, basically more solar than the US has. China deployed in one year in 2025. I mean, okay, how? Like why and how and like well, something that I spoke to Diana yesterday about was the fact that they they have a stranglehold on like rare earth mineral mineral processing. Does

that have anything to do with the production of like solar panel material? Yeah, so there's a lot that goes into just like the manufacturing process, and it's like basically China's has has is ex- is excelling in a lot of the structures to to manufacture solar panels. But, it's not just solar panels, it's also like wind, like same thing

with wind, like they deployed like I think 100 gigawatts of wind power, and I think estimates say that's around like 60-70% of like global capacity. And then like again with like the batteries and the minerals, like a lot of the manufacturing for lithium-ion batteries, which are going to be needed to help manage the the power from renewables,

a lot of that is based in China. So, they've been able to succeed in a lot of different areas. But, that's not to say that like there isn't space for like a US and other Western companies to scale technologies.

I think there's a lot of, you know, bright spots when it comes to innovation. But in when it comes to like deploying renewables at scale like China's done an incredible job. Like you started, you know, with the model of nuclear like standardizing processes um and then repeating them and then um making things as easy as forward to as

easy as possible to replicate. Why? Like how? That is a great question. I mean, there's so much analysis that can go into like how the US and China and like other countries have like developed technologies initially. Um, but then how China had basically cleared the pathway to scale. And I think a lot of it also

comes to like um comes into like the political dynamics of how they fund projects and how the government works with like the government works with these industries to regulate them. Um, so there is a lot of support from like the public sector in certain areas, especially when it comes to nuclear, how, you know, like in the US landscape

a lot of financing might have to come from the private sector versus in China, you know, there's a lot more support in certain areas for public sector funding. Um, and how these companies kind of like are also, you know, working with the state.

So there's a lot of nuances there. Um, but I think they're just very good at like the at just like the doing a little bit of like testing and then copying pasting and repeating the the process. But I mean, is there like is there any is it historical? Is it cultural? Like like what enabled uh China, you know, is

it strategic? You know, is it is it a decision that just the leadership made like 20 years ago that this is where they want they made a bet. You know, what I mean? Just in the same way the US made a bet and now we're we're at where at. Like Yeah, what how did China get

here? Yeah, that is a great question. And I feel like I'm also trying to like understand this. Like we were talking about like renewables and nuclear, but like even on the fusion side, like the US government, there are different reports that say, you know, um they invest between like 800 million and like a

billion dollars into the industry. And then there's like all these different financing mechanisms. But then in China, there's like 3 billion dollars going in and that's expanding. And it's not even just like the the funding from the state. It's also like they're developing the workforce. They have like multiple PhD students and and candidates um

who are entering the nuclear fusion sector, who are studying plasmas and ions, who are going deeper into these technologies. Uh so it's like I don't know why, but they're doing it. Um and it's exciting. And there's also like all these like different ripple effects of like what that means both for China, for the, you

know, for the world at large, and also like the impact it has in the United States. But um I think generally speaking, like the world needs energy. You know, China also needs energy. They're also, you know, expanding, you know, fossil fuels and coal. Like it's not like they're only doing renewables.

They're expanding energy as a whole. And I think they're just trying to get ahead of the curve to kind of make sure that they have all the systems they need to have a secure energy future um as with any country.

Is there anything in this Is there anything that they've done poorly? You know, anything that that that is uh that that we can learn from mistakes of of how they've deployed renewables? I don't know know about the deployment side because they're deploying things, you know, well. But I think they're they're also they also have their challenges.

Like a lot of the resources themselves, like they're not necessarily um you can't necessarily find them in China, right? So that's why, you know, they're also looking at exploring different technologies as well. And I think um there's innovation happening in China, to be sure. But there's a lot of new technologies being sprung up in the

US and in Western countries and like even in other parts of Asia just like exploring different battery chemistries and like different different models there but I think even on the innovation side like if you're looking at you know different types of battery chemistries like pretty good example of an interesting technology are sodium ion batteries and like China

again has like one of the largest deployments of a sodium ion battery and that's really important because like say lithium ion for whatever reason like doesn't work out in the future whether that's like due to like the actual resources of lithium else that's a challenge like China needs to make sure that they have a technology

for energy storage that they can kind of develop and scale internally and they have domestic supplies of sodium so like sodium ion batteries are like not potentially like very difficult to manufacture so they're pretty well set to scale that technology as well So there's there's a second thing that I wrote down because

there were two things that were interesting about China that there way that they deploy which is what we just talked about and the second thing was was lithium so is there how how do you better I mean I just wrote lithium so you know how can you better describe what that second topic

Yeah so maybe just talk a little talking a little bit about like what's been happening on the energy storage side so we talk a lot of investments in energy storage and this range is between like electrochemical thermal and mechanical and I won't get too into thermal and mechanical for now so like electrochemical is basically just water

right Okay so we have which is hilarious that this that you meant storage cuz I just wrote it down as the next thing I wanted to talk about so I'm glad that this this means the same thing so within storage you said there's three types of storage for now there's the multiple types of

energy storage but like for now let's just classify them as like mechanical um Okay thermal and electrochemical like these are generally ways that you can describe storage you can you just quickly go through what those three are and then dive into the one that you wanted to talk about Yeah so say for mechanical you're kind

of leveraging a little bit more of like different sorts of um potential energy. So, like a good example would be pumped hydro where potentially you store a lot of war a lot of water in a certain region, and then as that water flows down, the energy is potentially discharged.

Um and then another example is thermal energy storage. So, you have things like different types of materials that can store heat really well. Um and then store that energy for longer periods of time, and then either release Hm? You have like molten salt bricks, uh graphite, different types of materials that can that can be used. And then

there's a lot of companies in our GCT 100 report that have been uh looking into this space. You have like Rondo Energy, uh Kraft Block, Redox Block, and Entora. They're all kind of in the space of like thermal energy storage. Um Okay.

And then electrochemical? Electrochemical, you have the batteries. So, you have lithium-ion batteries, sodium, uh you have different types of like interesting chemistries in like nickel, um iron, uh zinc, different different areas we can get into. Um So, Yeah, is is is is the So, out of this set here, like batteries is obviously

the one that I'm most familiar with. I feel like people would be most familiar with. But, is it is that just because you know, it's the same word that's used for batteries that go in like a TV remote, or is it because it's the most uh the the most popular way right now to

store energy? Yeah, so batteries are basically uh How do I say this? So, they store energy in like the in like some of them have like redox reactions. So, it's like how you store uh energy in like the electrochemical sense. Um Uh-huh. So, like let's just talk about like flow batteries for example. So, you have a

lot of different types of batteries and you can basically have different types of electrolyte, which is the medium that transfers the electrons between each other. Uh and so, for example, if we're talking about different types of chemistries, you have like lithium-ion batteries that primarily use lithium-ions, you have sodium-ion batteries that use sodium-ions, and then

you have flow batteries that can use a range of different types of electrolytes. And one of the common ones is vanadium. And so, lithium, sodium, and vanadium are all interesting just because of like how they've been commercialized in China. So, China also has like again, like a really good um domestic supply of vanadium. So, they

could also potentially scale vanadium flow batteries as well. So, they are expanding across a wide variety of energy storage technologies. Um and so, I think it'll be interesting to see how those deployments and those different chemistries scale over time.

Do you personally have any favorites as far as like within storage specifically? Yeah, I'm really curious to see how sodium-ion batteries scale in China. Like I think they are going to be potentially the next type of technology to to keep an eye on, especially as um it relates to China just given the fact

that you can potentially use a lot of the same manufacturing tools for lithium-ion batteries. Um but for sodium, and then sodium is potentially easier material and resource to procure. What about EVs? Do does does this technology matter for EVs, or is that a totally different conversation?

Yeah, no, that's a great question. And I think this goes down comes back down into like maybe two main components when we're thinking about batteries, and that comes that comes into like cost and energy density. So, cost is obviously, you know, lithium-ion batteries are pretty cheap right now. They've come down quite rapidly in the past couple of

years. I think in 2021, 2022, we saw a spike where they were around like 150 dollars per kilowatt hour. Um, but then that's come down a little bit or like that's come down like quite substantially until like 2025 2026 where I've seen estimates around like 105 dollars per kilowatt hour and then for

like stationary storage applications like potentially like 70 dollars. But you asked about mobility which is like a really great great question because like companies have looked into this where they're like, "Okay, like there are some challenges with the lithium ion batteries. You have like sourcing lithium, you have sourcing some of like the other materials when it

comes to like nickel nickel and cobalt if you're using an NMC. And then you also have like the challenges of let's just like fire safety too. And then for sodium ion batteries you can potentially avoid some of the challenges with when it comes to like the fire risk. And then you can also potentially use this

material that's easier to obtain. But the challenge that some of these companies have seen when trying to scale sodium ion batteries for EVs is just that you need basically larger systems that are not as energy dense. So you need potentially like bigger batteries.

And then you also don't have the the cost competitiveness with lithium ion batteries. So that's been a challenge especially like in the United States when companies have to have have had to do that. But in China it's a little bit different because there are electric vehicles and and companies out there that are actively trying to develop

sodium ion batteries for EVs. So I think that's a really good point where it's like how does this dynamic change if you can use sodium ion batteries both for stationary storage like renewables deployment and also just like for the applications in the EVs too.

So so my my question then along the lines of storage and storage at scale is that I've again I've been reading storytelling and I don't know what the narrative is and like to clarify this is that the the more that people get batteries in their homes and the more that people are able to store energy at

their homes, there's a concept the virtual power plant concept. What is that and is it where is it at in its maturity Yeah, that's a really good question. So, there's this company called Base Power that raised around like $1 million last year and they're doing basically residential home energy storage and they're using lithium ion batteries.

So, basically what it comes down to is if you have a battery in your home, you can manage the energy that you consume but also potentially store energy for future for future uses and how it relates to the grid.

So, basically the best way to do it the the best way to describe it is that the energy market is fluctuating quite a bit and so there are times where it can be optimal to sell energy back to the grid.

And so, if you're able to do that, you can potentially reduce the overall cost for managing energy within your home. Um, and it also provides a service where potentially if, you know, operators require more energy, they can tap into those batteries up at times so that they have more access. Are you are you optimistic about the adoption of

of this this model? Yeah, I think for home energy management like it makes a lot of sense. I think where it would be nice where it would be interesting to see more growth is in different areas of industry and how you can scale it with larger energy users and I think that there are a couple

organizations that are trying to do that potentially when it comes to managing energy loads from data centers but also other large energy users as well. But, I think for the home it's really interesting especially if you're able to use it to reduce your home energy bill. Yeah, for real. Um, oh, I I asked Anthony this

question. I don't know if it's if it's relevant or not. Is there a potential for say you have a battery in your home and you don't know where to put it? Can you make it a couch? Can you make it a couch? Yeah, you know what I mean? Like put the like make a

back like make a couch and then you make the bottom of it the battery so that you have a place to put it. good question. Like is that unsafe? Is it going to blow up? The challenge with like if anything happens to it, like you want to make sure that like it's a safety issue. Yeah, catch on fire

like while I'm Yeah. in the attic. Like you want to make sure everyone's safe just because that's one of the biggest challenges with lithium ion batteries. But if you have like maybe a sodium ion battery in your home, then maybe you can can on to something. Okay, good. Good. Cuz there I mean there's there's like one

company that I know that's trying to look at sodium ion batteries for residential home energy storage. Uh yeah, I was just thinking like where would you put it, you know, cuz I've seen like early Tesla uh like ads and they're like put it in your garage, you know, so it's like oh it's it's like a

So maybe put it in your garage, but like what if it was just in your house? Like what if it was a kitchen table? Like what I don't know. Like what if it was just a TV? But I don't know if that's that's uh relevant. Anyway.

a really good point. It's like something you should think about, too. Cool, we're cooking. Let's go. So I have So I have two um two last general topics uh that that I want you to speak on before uh we get to two of my favorite questions. And the first one is all the

way at the beginning we talked about generation. We talked about different kinds of generation and this is where so much of um the innovation is happening, different technologies are happening. So wherever you want to take it, uh you know, shout out companies that you're excited about, that you that you've been talking to, but what's

happening in innovation as it relates to uh energy and power generation? Yeah, that's a really good question. So um I think when it comes to the generation side, when we're talking about solar and wind, there are a couple really great companies that are out there. A couple of them are in our GCT

100. There's this company called Arenas. They're doing uh robotics and AI for like asset inspection, so like making sure that um all the materials are maintained for wind turbines and for the wind industry. There's another company called Infravision that's also using robotics and AI to maintain power lines.

So, that's like a little bit more on like the uh the uh transmission distribution infrastructure. Um but then on like hydropower, there's like this uh this company called Asana Renewables which is doing like modular hydro systems. Modular hydropower. Yeah.

Is that also one that that does electricity in here or just electric? Does mostly electricity, yeah. Right. Hydropower is one that I forgot earlier. No, we're all good. All right. So, hydropower, there's companies on the come up there.

Yeah, doing hydropower. And I think this modularity is really important and that's like also like in the nuclear space as well. So, like if you know what an a small modular reactor is, it's basically nuclear reactor but much smaller modular so that you can deploy it at scale. Um so, like the modular

reactors that are using existing technologies, I think are really interesting. There are a couple of companies out there that have may had really have made a lot of headlines and have large partnerships that are trying to do cool things with like the type of fuel source that they're using and their cooling. But I think the ones that are

just smaller and use like the supply chains that we already have, I think Uh-huh. are pretty exciting when it comes to like how they'll scale over time. Interesting. Um and then what else on the innovation side? Oh, I don't know if we got into this but like wave and tidal energy, these are like more emerging

sources. Wow. Yeah, so that's basically just like putting a device like a little bit offshore and then like harnessing the energy as like the buoy potentially goes up and down and then converting that into electricity. Why is that happening now? How long has it been around?

Yeah, it's been around for a while. It just hasn't scaled. I think like unfortunately it just comes down into like the cost of the actual system and maintaining it cuz it's like the ocean is a a harsh environment. You can't just like put things out there and just like have it True. and have them like deployed in all

these different regions. Um And if you're using it to like connect back to the grid, like that there's also a lot of um uh infrastructure you need to like build out to support that. But then I think where this is interesting is if you have very specific applications offshore that require sp- that had very specific energy needs.

So there's like offshore drilling rigs, offshore like naval bases, um other offshore sites that maybe are powering either like submarines or drones. Like how are they getting the energy that they need? And if they're just using diesel generators, can they potentially use wave energy? Um so it's one thing They're They're going to use renewable

energy to to like get fossil fuels. You'd be surprised. You'd be surprised at who's interested in wave energy. That's crazy. So when you when you talk about So when you when you're framing uh conversations in energy and power and we're talking about uh energy generation, do you usually put solar and wind together?

Like are they are they are they common enough or um I think I end up lumping them together I think I end up lumping them together only because I end up talking quite a bit about battery storage. I also talk about like nuclear. Um and then also uh geothermal. So when I'm talking about

these other areas of innovation, I group solar and wind together only because they're like relatively commercial. Um Okay. And that's why as someone who's like focused on innovation, I don't have to like spend a lot of time working on like the really large commercial manufacturing like solar and wind. I spend a lot more

time on like the different types of technologies that um are a little bit more earlier stage. So so then within that framework, putting solar and wind together, you're saying the um the innovation that's happening in that space right now has to do with uh asset management or damage control.

I mean I think that area is partic- particularly interesting. There's also There's also um different types of components or how potentially you can structure the different turbines for the wind uh for the for wind power. Um but also for solar, there's like thin film, there's different types of materials that you can use. I I'm not sure if my colleague

Diana went into this on the material side, but there's a lot of interesting things happening there on the materials lens. Um but I think it's cool like if you say that like oh you can have a robot that can just like clear out the dust on a solar panel and make it a lot

more efficient. That one I think that's pretty interesting and like underrated, especially if you're thinking about if solar is going to be deployed in regions in like the Middle East where there's like a lot of sun, but also a lot of sand, how do you make sure that those uh systems are um

are kept up and running. Interesting. And then you mentioned uh hydropower. That's Th- things are things are happening there. Wave tidal energy you just talked about. Yeah. Um you talked about uh ma- the the um the acceptance or the innovation of making nuclear more modular has made it uh very more exciting and and

potentially more uh applicable or or um sooner. Uh the other one is geothermal. What's happening with that? Yeah, geothermal I think is so interesting just given the fact that like there's some So there's this one company that in particular I think is super cool. It's called Quaise Energy. And the reason I think it's so fascinating is because

I've done a lot of research in like the fusion industry and so like seeing how some of the technologies to support fusion can support geothermal, I think is super cool. So basically they use a lot of the um tools developed to support like the Um there's this technology called gyrotrons, and they're essentially using

that instead of like for fusion applications, they're using that to support drilling. So they can drill a lot deeper and further into the earth to get like super hot resources to support power generation. So that is one reason why I think geothermal is interesting.

Another reason why I think geothermal is interesting is because there's a bit of overlap between the tools required to support geothermal and natural gas, and that's why you've seen a bit of support coming from like the current administration to also support geothermal energy.

And I think that just is a good indicator of like how it might scale over time in this in the sense of like regardless of like the policies or like the administration in place, there's a lot of uh people and industries who would benefit from the the scaling and the growth of the

geothermal industry. So there's a bit of like um industry expertise and overlap between oil and gas and geothermal. Are there are there any people that are Well, how about this? I'll ask this week cuz I know that there are. What are the arguments any arguments against geothermal, against modular nuclear, tidal energy, any of these things? Yeah.

So with geothermal, I think one of the arguments I've heard against it is related to just like how deep you drill, and then if you know of like the problems with fracking, it's like seismicity. So like how earthquakes happen. And so the challenge with geothermal that I've heard placed against it is that once you

drill too deep, there are challenges with like the plates shifting in the same way that it would occur with fracking. But with fracking and when you're using this type of technology for the oil and gas industry, you're also putting water back into the earth. And like that earth that sorry, that water makes it a little

bit more fluid, so it's a little bit easier for the plates to shift. Versus like if you're using a technology like we use, what they've said is basically how because they're just drilling deep, but they're not necessarily putting water back into the earth, it's not necessarily the same way that you would have that friction of

um of like the plates shifting against each other and causing earthquakes. So, that's just like one technical challenge I've heard against geothermal. Um for the modular nuclear reactors, I I don't know what the challenge is, but just like scaling down the technology that we already have into smaller. I think the general delays we've seen have just

been related to just like getting them up and running, the financing, the timelines, the permitting. Um but I think eventually like once they are once you do have those first-of-a-kind plants, hopefully they will scale quite rapidly. I think where the challenge comes in for nuclear is if you're trying to develop a whole

uh supply chain to support a modular reactor where some of the technologies aren't fully commercialized yet. So, something like a fuel source that doesn't necessarily have like a fully commercialized supply chain in the US is just like an added challenge um to scale that type of technology. Got it.

And then if for wave and tidal, I think a lot of it just comes down to cost. Like we haven't really seen too many projects at the commercial level for those technologies. Um but I'm hoping that like as we're seeing more energy demands come from the coastal regions where all the cities are, there might be

some more exploration on scaling those wave and tidal systems. Good. Good. Good. Something that's huge is grid management. And uh stresses on the grid. I mean, we talked about you know, you alluded to it with uh with data centers. Uh you know, like large uh introductions of of uh large load. Is that what they're fault?

Yeah. And uh and we talked about storage. So, what's what's happening with uh management of of the grid? Yeah, there's been a lot of There's been a lot of technologies that we've seen scale in the past year. And I think one area in particular we've seen significant growth is in the transformer space. So, you have like solid-state

transformers and smart transformers. And what these do is these technologies basically help that better manage um the power quality and also just like the overall flow of energy. So, you have things like um, spikes in voltages that can cause outages and these have the technologies basically are smarter systems than the existing transformers

when it comes to like regulating those like abs and flows and voltages and those and those potential spikes. So, when you're thinking about renewables that have these very different kind of energy profiles, they require these systems that better manage these technologies.

Um, and so you have companies like Ionate and DG Matrix who are basically scaling these systems that can help both grid the grid infrastructure itself, but also data centers manage this energy flow. So, what are So, what did So, they they are just So, are they are they both developing complementary technologies or

they kind of just me they're kind of similar. So, DG Matrix is doing a solid state transformer and so a solid state transformer is basically almost like a modular version of an existing transformer and what a normal transformer does, it's like it's a system of different uh, types of coils um, that basically step up and step down

voltage so that when you're going from high voltage, you can go from low voltage or from low voltage you can go to high voltage and it helps with like the overall power transfer. Um, but usually these are very like static systems. There's not a lot of programming or um, ability to just like control the power

flow. Uh, so when you have a smart system, you have a lot more features that you can um, that you can um, play with. So, DG Matrix is developing this type of technology and they're primarily working with data centers and so like what their technology does is like they're able to reduce the number

of components um, that a data center might require to to manage its power um, so that they have this like level of precision that uh, you normally wouldn't see in like one specific product or one specific unit. So, I also I also wrote down Veer. Yeah.

Where do they fall in this? Veear I think is so cool. So, Veear is looking to scale a high temperature superconducting materials to support grid applications and data centers. So, what they're working on is like a cooling system to support superconducting materials. So, superconducting materials basically like don't have any resistance. So, it's a

lot easier to transfer electricity and improve the power flow using these materials. So, if you're thinking about like a normal a normal wire used in the grid, um if you use a high temperature superconductor, you can improve that by 10 times.

Um and so, Veear is able to like look at their ways to support cooling so that you could potentially have overhead lines for high temperature superconductors. Um but they're also looking at potential ways to integrate some of their um materials and expertise to support data centers as well that are going to require large volumes of power. Um and

how and also like how you're managing that once it goes into the data center itself just because a lot of the chips in the racks themselves are going to require a lot of energy. Right. So, so are we saying that they that Veear uh is making a better power line? Like are we

talking about the power lines that are in the air or they in the ground somehow? Yeah, so some of them are in the ground, some of them are in the air, they're the overhead lines, and then you have basically cables in data centers, too.

So, Veear is not necessarily developing the high temperature superconducting materials, but they're developing like the whole cooling unit so that you can have these systems at scale. So, it would essentially be like more efficient products. So, it's different So, there's So, there's different companies that are max they're making the materials that make those innovations, and Veear is

just trying to be uh like trying to to help adoption, scale adoption. Yeah, they're trying to like scale the technology for like other applications it wouldn't normally have. So, like high temperature superconductors are super interesting because they're needed for the fusion industry. And so, all these different fusion reactors are going to require

these types of superconducting superconducting tape cables and tape. Um and so, like, as that industry scales, the cost for high temperature superconductors comes down, and then you can potentially scale them for other applications as well. Which is like why I think, like, if you're asking me about what I like what technologies I'm most

looking forward to in like the next 5 10 years. Woah, that was my next question. That's great. high temperature superconductors just because they have like applications in fusion, they have applications in like in supporting grid infrastructure, and they have applications to support um the energy within the data centers itself. And it's a lot, so I can take a

quick breath. No, I No, this is This is all great, like I said. I mean, the the way that you're laying it out, you know, makes it makes a lot of sense. I mean, I didn't know that when I went on Veers' website, I I just saw like new power lines. And I was like, "Cool, they're

like, you know, enhancing power lines." But, you know, you just you just explained the the framework what they're actually doing. I mean, that that's really cool. Um I would Yeah, I was going to ask you something that you're excited about. So, you said this this superconducting the material is what you're excited about. Yeah. It has applications. Yeah,

so there's a couple different applications. So, I mentioned high temperature superconductors, I think, are interesting for fusion because there are these specific types of fusion reactors called like tokamaks and stellarators that are going to require high temperature superconducting tape to like manage the plasma. So, what happens is is that Yeah, so you can call it tape because it

looks like a tape cuz it's like super thin. Um That's funny. And so, like, you need these materials to basically have really high high-powered magnets so that the magnets kind of confine the plasma within the fusion reactor. So, like, that's one application of high temperature superconducting materials. And then you have the grid applications which is like

you have these lines that are aging. They may not necessarily be as efficient as they used to be. You may have like you know, you may have renewable assets in the middle of the country and you're trying to get like energy in like the coast. Like how do you improve the transmission infrastructure? If you're

able to improve the lines and like the the power flow capacity by like 10 times, like that opens up like a whole new world of just like moving power from like one place to another. And like you could potentially do that with high temperature superconducting materials.

So that's like a second application. And the third application is like if you're thinking about the data centers themselves, you're going to see more and more high-powered chips that are going to require a lot more energy within the data center. So like each rack is going to require a substantial amount of energy. And so like how do you

manage the power flow within the data center once once the energy energy densities get that high. And so there are potential applications for high temperature superconductors to support data centers. So I think that I think would be an interesting unlock if we can see it happen at scale in like the next couple of years. Are there any Are there

any hot takes? I don't know if that counts as a hot take. I don't have enough context to the industry. But do you have any takes that you and your colleagues disagree about? Something that you think will happen that they don't.

Yeah, I mean I think it always come it always comes back down to like the AI conversation. And I think that if you can I think AI and fusion will scale. It's not really a hard It's not really a hot take. It's just a matter of when. And I think as they do scale, I'm like excited

to see the number of technologies that also kind of scale with them as they grow. And then whether or not these industries themselves like succeed or like remain stagnant or if there's like any sort of just like decline, I think the amount of innovation and technologies that are used to support these industries

will have a lot of growth potential in the future as well. So, that's what I'm kind of excited to see, and like that's my kind of hot take. Do they Are Are there disagreeing arguments against that? Um I think it's just like on timelines.

Like everyone's like, "Oh, AI and fusion will not scale in the next 10 to 15 years." And I think that maybe like in the next 5 years we'll hopefully see a private fusion company say that they've made very significant gains in the past ones.

Nice. Awesome. Well, this has been so fun. And seriously, I mean, it's crazy being here, you know, at this at this mark in the conversation and feeling like Like literally all this stuff these things I wrote down there are just so many more.

there's so many sub-bullets. Yeah, there's there there there's so much more depth that we could achieve. So, I appreciate you walking through this. This was extremely helpful for my own understanding of energy and power. It really It's really a great addition to the piece that you already wrote. My last question that I

have for you is within all of this, I mean, clearly you have a lot of passion about this, which is exciting. What inspires you in general? Yeah, I think it's just the people and the founders who are so excited for the technology that they're developing and watching them speak and seeing how they

can see their technology grow over time just makes me excited for them. And also just like knowing how hard they've worked and just like building a company and like going from like a concept to a design to like a first product and then potentially scaling with their partners.

Like that that process is always so inspiring to me. Well, shout out the founders. Yeah. Shout out. Well, cool. Zainab, this has been so great. Thank you so much for the conversation. If If anyone else was inspired to follow along or get in touch, what's the best way to that?

I don't know, you can reach out to me on LinkedIn and also just go to the Clean Tech Group website. So, we have a lot of information on our website as well. Do it. Do it. Awesome. Thank you so much.

I'm excited for the next one. I Well, you know, we got a lot more to cover. I'm excited that you're doing this. You got it. All right, thanks so much. All right, sounds good.