Building Climate Startups with Serena Dao, Climate Tech Operator & Writer

Hello, welcome to another episode. Today on the show we have Serena Dao. Serena uh has very quickly become uh a fun a good friend of mine. I think uh she brings such perspective uh coming from the engine in Boston uh the accelerator incubator uh program if uh any of you are familiar. She ran community support

uh for the years that she was there uh coming from a background uh of in and out of school in and out of very early stage atte biotech um companies and her specialty is really operations and team building at a very early stage. She's actually in the middle of a transition uh away from the engine and into a very

early stage uh startup where she will be practicing everything that she speaks to uh in this episode. So, not only does she talk the talk, but Serena walks the walk. Uh, very excited for this. I learned a lot. You will, too. Shout out to our partners, Clean Techch Growth Lab. If you're looking to grow in clean

tech, they are the people to do it with. And as always, the producers of this podcast, Craze and Friends. With that, I give you Serena. Hey, welcome to another episode of The Grove. Thank you to the sponsors. shout it out just before this. Without them, it would not be possible to interview awesome people doing awesome things like

Serena. Welcome. Hi. Thanks for having me, Blake. Oh, yeah. And thank you for working out all the uh the chaos in the scheduling cuz I'm I know you're used to chaos. We'll get into your experience with uh you know, making companies out of nothing and then helping other people do the same. Uh very chaotic environment,

something uh you've navigated very well. So, I'm glad that this podcast was a version of that. So, uh for anyone that doesn't know yet, uh if you could give a brief introduction of yourself and what you're building. Yeah. Awesome. So, uh I'm Serena. I am based in Boston, Massachusetts right now, but recently um moved from

Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. My career trajectory has been starting off as a scientist. So, I went to undergrad here at Nor Eastern in Boston. Um, and I worked in the startup space in Boston for a few biotech companies in the area.

Then moved to San Francisco where I worked in biotech, then agriculture, then food and then into uh carbon removal um before then recently getting my MBA from Carnegie Melon. So that's why I moved to Pittsburgh and then moved from Pittsburgh back to Boston uh where I was working for the engine which is a

nonprofit startup accelerator. Um based in Cambridge and then as of last Friday I'm no longer at my role at the engine. I'm going to be transitioning into a new role. So you're hitting me in this very interesting like gap right now where I've just been able to sort of like take a break but also I'm going to be

building something new uh starting next Wednesday. What an honor. What a what a beautiful uh little time capsule that we get to capture right now. So um so yeah, what what uh what fascinated me um before learning about all the other things that you did was your role at the engine and what the

engine does and how you guys approach things. So, we'll get into all of that, but uh something I'm curious about is before you got to Nor Eastern or while you're at Nor Eastern or whatever, had you always had a vision of I'm going to do all this biotech environmental stuff and save the world or did something

happen either in undergrad or beforehand that sent you in that direction? Yeah. So, um I'm from Maine. Uh and you grow up like around nature. And I remember being a kid being told like at like the like what what like global warming and climate change was. And then there was at some point they kind of

said like the winters are going to become more mild and like the summers are going to become like a little hotter in Maine, but that's it. Um, and then as like time went on, I started to see like the real changes of what was going on just in like the local environment of

Maine around me. Um, and so I think that became just like a bigger motivation in the back of my head of like always wanting to do something in like helping help just like when I think about it like I didn't want my town to like get worse. Um, I wanted things to like I

wanted our like oceans to be there. I wanted like our plants to be there. I wanted like the nature to still be around and to realize that like that was starting to disappear just from like a childhood perspective was very like just be like grew this like existential dread in the back of my head.

How old were you? Um I remember being in like second to like fourth grade. So like Maine has a very oh my goodness existential crisis in second grade. It wasn't like existential but it was just like noticing like like Maine has a very interesting education. We don't need to go into that, but they like put

you into like like we were we were sent to like winter survival and we're sent to like stay away camps to like learn how to make fires and like read compasses and stuff. So, you're like much more to what's going on.

So, like they they drive you to a remote location, blindfold you and tell you to find your way home type of thing. They didn't blindfold us, but they did drop us off into the at 13 years old with a crate of food and said good luck.

Amazing. Wow. Well, um Okay. Okay. So, and then somehow that experience motivated you and you were like, I'm going to do this. I'm going to save the planet. So, um I think so. Yeah. It kind of was like what pushed me into science. Like I always wanted to do something in climate and then kind of like was in all of

these more adjacent spaces until I really was in like the carbon removal space and then I felt like I was like truly in like climate work. So, um Okay. So then to to uh to finish this off at Nor Eastern, you had pursued science from the start, engineering.

What what was the experience there? Um so I study chemistry and physics. Uh I um Nor Eastern has this pro program that's in a lot of schools now, but it's called the co-op program. So you do three six-month internships while you're in school. Um, and I I got to like go work at the Woods Hole Oceanographic

Institution in Cape Cod. So, I studied like marine chemistry and geohysics. Then worked for a big pharma company for my next co-op. And then I worked for a startup um doing like chemical analysis for like fire hazards and things like that. And I like realized where like my passion was in terms of like I loved the

environment of a startup but also really wanted the impact of the speed in which you can get things done at a startup versus like in research things are a little slower and then like big industry um things are also like a lot slower as well like there's more there's a lot of paperwork on both sides of those things.

Okay. So um so what was what was the startup biotech? Is that how you got into that that so I I worked at GKO Bowworks as my first job like out of graduation um from 2016 to 2019. Um so that's like at the time I was hired as like one like there was

like less than 100 people in that company. So you said so so then um how long were you there for? Uh I was there for like two and a half almost three years. I think it was like two years and like nine months or something like that.

Okay, we will return to that. Um the the the interesting thing that you said that I wanted to ask about was you felt like um you went through a couple different experiences got to carbon removal and felt like that was really um like a time that you were making an impact or something with the climate.

Why was that? Um, so in the biotech space and the ad tech space and the food tech space, it's like I'm doing all these sort of like adjacent things. So I'm like finding more efficient ways to like make um to make like food or like plants grow better um or or like using

less water in like certain types of production. But then like carbon removal is like shout out Charm Industrial who I worked for. Um, we were we were like taking um we were taking uh corn feed stock and turning it into oil and putting it back into the ground like a like actively removing what would have

been like degrading carbon into the atmosphere and putting it underground where it could be stored long term. Like that was so tangible and clear to me. Um when we know that like our ozone layer is like having issues and carbon is being emitted into the atmosphere knowing that like we're putting carbon back into the earth.

Yeah. So, so um personal question, subjective question. There's been some interesting discussion here on this podcast and also in general about the the feasibility of carbon removal because and and I'm curious what your guys' business model was, but a lot of times carbon removal companies rely on carbon markets and selling credits and

things like this. and a huge portion of them are voluntary and uh even and then even the ones that aren't are enforced by regulation that uh is not currently here anymore. So So what's your so what's your opinion about carpet removal like as a whole right now?

This is like what business school taught me. So like up until like I went to go get my MBA like I was a scientist and so I always looked at things through the science brain of like cool well this is really impacting our environment and this is like what's making what's going to like help our

planet so like why aren't people why don't people care about it why aren't people investing in it why aren't people trying to build this and like now having gone to school I understand like yeah I understand the voluntary carbon market I understand that like it's not sustainable to have a business that's like fully dependent on like a

government uh a government tax subsidy that is like it's called like 48Q and that's like still around but it's very likely like going to it the probability of it getting chopped is like not zero. Um and and so like I still believe the technology is necessary. Like if we stopped polluting immediately like we

were just not creating any more carbon right now from like emitting uh from from like power or cars or fuel or anything like there is still so much carbon in the atmosphere that we actually still need to pull it down and like do something with it to like try to rebalance our planet. So

like just again very subjective like whatever like where do you see like what do you see the state of carbon removal or carbon credits or anything like that. Do you think that is the solution? Do you think something else is going to be uh created? You know what's the future of that space?

I think it's carbon capture utilization. So it's not just like pulling CO2 from the atmosphere with like direct capture or doing like enhanced rock weathering. It's like it has to do something else. So people who are like taking the CO2 and turning it into like sustainable aviation fuel or people who are doing

enhanced rock weathering but then they're putting it on the soil so it like makes soil less acidic. Um there's like a few startups that are doing like wastewater treatment with it because again it's like breaking down the acidity and that's wild.

Yeah. So there's a lot of really interesting technology of what people are doing um in that type of of carbon capture and then additional utilizations because it's like you're actually doing something with that. could take it could take.

Yeah, Charm is a really good example of like they're one of the few carbon removal companies that's like still doing pretty well and like they're taking the bio oil and they're using it in the process for like iron and steel making.

That's cool. I didn't know that actually. Hey, there you go. That's uh I I again I assume that they were selling those those credits and things. So to to put it in steel is pretty awesome. Yeah. So, um, uh, what I, now we made it, we made it all the way, we zoomed

through years of your life and we're here at the engine. So, um, by the time that you were at the engine, uh, with a little bit of context of your past, I'm curious when you reflect, and I I guess this is a particularly reflective period, but when you reflect on the engine and the work that you did, uh,

what let's, let's talk about two, uh, experiences or, you know, whatever from your past that significantly impacted how you went about working uh, do you know, doing your work at the engine? Yeah, thanks for asking that question. and it's a really good one. Um, I have been in startups from like preede all

the way to like series C. Um, so like that's like less than 20 people all the way to like 200 plus people. Um, and at the engine like the goal of the engine is to support what we call tough technology. So that's like really impactful work in climate change, healthcare, infrastructure and manufacturing. Um, and my role was to

try to find these teams that met that mission at the engine and were doing that kind of impactful work. And a lot of these teams I met were very like young like early stage twoerson founders like they have an idea they're trying to turn it into a company. and and I really felt from a personal perspective um

having worked in the industry how hard it was and and also how impactful that work is because you know there's lots of people who who are building things in software um and and there's like this huge AI boom right now but like to build a startup that is pulling CO2 from the atmosphere and turning it into a

sustainable aviation fuel to finding new therapeutics to like building building like new forms of of like concrete production like that takes years like like 15 20 years to do that type of work and that's the work that I've been doing for years and I think that there are not that many people who understand that um when

people think of startups they think of it in like the software level speed which is like two to five years um and so I got to like really relate I think that's what people really liked about me is I could really relate to what they were doing because I've spent so much time um personally doing that type of

work. So, so then so then uh uh rephrase the question then what are what are two things that I think what are two things that created that that relatability like two things that you experience that are specific to um those the the development of the the hardware and those founders and things like two things that you know

software developers or um companies that are based on software don't relate to um like the the physical labor of like sitting in in a lab and like generating data. Um that's like different than being at a computer like just like I I I I like don't know how to explain to someone who's like not necessarily in

software but like everyone's doing different types of work but like you're running an experiment to generate like one data point and that can take you like eight to like 20 to weeks of like like hour like hours just like sitting and doing manual labor to to get that. Um uh so there's there's that

aspect but two I also um I think because like I have this like really good bridge of like being able to work in science and understand science but also like communicate it in a way that people can understand.

Um I use like I use my family as like a litmus test for it. So my family all comes from like the restaurant industry and if like I can't explain what I do to them then like I'm not I'm not like doing a good job explaining what I'm doing.

Nice. That's pretty good. Okay. Okay, those are those are two extremely solid um uh solid pieces of perspective. So, uh the the first thing I want to ask is that uh you said a huge part of what you did was find and help build the the early teams.

So, what I mean it sounds like I know what that means, but can you can you explain what that means? Yeah. So, finding these teams um is everything from just like going to like pitch events to just like meeting people who are doing interesting research. Um, so like finding like where are the best

like labs? Like we're in Boston, so there's like Harvard and like MIT that are like down the street, but like you know a lot of this technology that's like the most impactful in uh and and is being developed is like not in the coastal states. Like they're in Chicago, they're in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania,

like they're they're in like North Carolina, like they are in these like central areas. And so trying to find these people doing that type of work. Um, and then in terms of like helping them build those resources, that's like that's like how do you turn like your research into a company? Like what does

it mean to incorporate your company? Like what does it mean to have your intellectual property? Like how do you fund raise, you know? What is the difference between like getting a government grant versus getting like a safe versus getting like a like a check from a VC? like all of those things or

even just like how do you build how do you build a team? Um because you're not just building uh a you're not building just a technology which is hard and laborious and timeconuming to do but like you are an organization of people.

So like how do you build an organization of people? Uh well, I think you just uh you just laid out potentially, you know, an entire series of episodes that we could do because I feel like there's enough content in each of those topics. So, uh I'll put that I'll drop those note potentially that's something we can do

together. But at least for right now, just in like the introductory overview episode, I'll give you the option. I mean, you name like I said the the fundraising piece, you know, the the team building piece, like patent, you know, piece. All these things are extremely important and uh I think not commonly understood as they should be.

So which one I guess did you enjoy the most or maybe had some of the most experiences with? Um that's a good question. I mean I really I really think that people in starting a company don't think about building the organization of people. And I think that's something that I have like learned that that I would be I I think

is a good direction to grow because like I have um I also like I think a lot of people would say like startups fail not because the technology is not sound but like because it's like people it's like figure it's figuring out how to work with people.

Got it. Okay. I love that. And that makes me very excited. So let's say uh let's let's take a hypothetical or we can you know put it into a tangible experience that you had. You found you found the founders. You found the this idea. You approach them. You say, "We're the engine. Obviously you want to work

with us. We're awesome." And they said, "Oh, of course, like we know who you are. Obviously want to work with you." So then all that happens and they're working with you. Now you're in a situation. You go, "Okay, we did it. You know, we're looking to expand the team.

What questions am I asking? What how am I even thinking about that? You're like higher, second hire." Yeah. I think that that's a that's like a great question to think about. So it's like you have your like first like preede round. It's like okay we need to hire people. Who do we hire? Obviously

you do need to expand your technology. So like getting those technical hires but then there's like there's the question of just like you need things like an accountant, you need a lawyer, you need a you need like an HR person and you need to make these decisions of like are these like do I hire these

fractionally? Do I pay for like a software to do that? Um and or or how do you decide? Um, so, so we have, so the engine has this really awesome course called management 101 that like teaches you how to think about these things. Um, so I'm just going to like shamelessly plug that, but also it is

like based on like what are the what are the skills and the priorities of the founder. So like especially founders who are like incredibly tech heavy who are now having to learn like how do I get insurance for my team is like that's when I would definitely like there's a lot of like recommendations that like we

like we the engine have but also like I have of just like fractional HR like fractional legal fractional CFO. Um is that the direction companies usually go in after a preede? Um I would say like most of the time people are either running their own HR but they are using a lot of like fractional

support in those ways. Yeah. Okay. So then they do that and then the first one or two hires because that's I mean what I I guess um what is a typical number of hires after preede round or does it vary greatly?

It v it varies a lot. Um, but I would say like at typically at preede you're still less than 10 people. Okay. So, so yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was going to say and majority of those people are are mostly technical hires.

Okay. Um, but then like this is this is like a great transition. So like I'm going to be moving into a new role for an early stage startup that is less than 10 people. I am the first and I'm pretty sure for the rest of the preede like round I am the only non-technical hire.

Okay. something then which I think is a perfect question for you as the nontechnical hire and able to um look at things through a non-technical lens is what to what degree do you need uh uh procedures to what degree do you need like SOPs written out to what like how how how do you know what direction how deep into

this direction to go before your first hire? Oh my god. I would recommend everyone needs to figure out like their standardization early like what like everything from like what email platform are you using? Are you using Gmail? Are you using Outlook? Cuz like once you start that you're like you're basically stuck with it. Like trying to transition

later on is going to take a lot of time and a lot of effort that you're not going to want to give. Um so making those decisions like pretty early on. Um and then sorry what was the you you led you asked you led just generally like how how do you think about okay my the

the overall question was you're you're making your first hire making your first two hires let's say and you just raised a preede round and and like I said I think this is perfect for you because your first non-technical hire so if you're going into this company right now um you know how many procedures should

they have in place before making a hire or is it a thing where you can make the hire because that's the most important thing you need to start doing the work and then you make the procedure as they go along. I mean, you have so much time that you have to figure out how to

allocate and energy as a as a founder, you know, how do you how do you know how much to to allocate to standard procedures, you know, just like basic documentation? Yeah. Yeah. So, yes. So, there is like two aspects of that. The first thing I'm going to say is it sounds kind of silly

cuz it's like not a tangible thing to like create, but like create like a company culture or like a company motto or like mission pretty early on. Um because that's a very grounding focus for the rest of your team of like what the bigger goal is.

What would that look like? Um so that's like you see this with like different companies but you see it in like the mission. So it's like not just the goal of the company where it's like we are trying to uh redefine you know drug delivery or something like that but it's also like what are what are like

the the pillars of the organization is it like honesty integrity is it like high high EQ like um or or it's just like the foundational core of just like what are the goals of the mission and of the organization and who are the type of people that we are here.

This this is a tough question to answer, so don't worry about it if you can't. But I'm just thinking is the off the top of your head, like off of the dome, do you have uh a potential good example of a company that does this right like a good motto?

I don't think that there's like a a like right one. I think it is just like like well who that's someone who that a company that has done it well that like I guess yeah the the question comes from just like when you're saying those things and I'm trying I'm trying to think about being a founder and like

applying these things I would just say okay what what use is it to me that I'm saying hey like I'm trying to redefine drug delivery and then I say we value happiness and hard work you know like what's the difference between somebody just putting that out there because I agree with you that it's important

obviously it is because you're saying it and and this is stuff that you've uh you know worked on with different companies, but what is the difference between writing something for the sake of writing something and writing something that actually matters to the culture of the company?

Yeah, I think it's like it has to be based off of like what the founders care about, not just the technology. Because that's the thing is I think a lot of people get caught up in just building the technology and don't focus on the value of like people themselves and like what their motivation is. Um and so

being able to have those core fundamentals I think is really important early on as a mission of the organization. Okay. Though you there were uh there were two things after the the SOP question. You said one was this this motto. What would you call it? A statement motto.

Yeah. Yeah. I would say I would say the mission of the organization and the val and the values of the organization. Mission and values. Okay. So it's one half it. What's the other half that you're going for? Um it is like find like decide on a way in which you want to be organized and like stick with it.

Like right now it doesn't need to be perfect but yes like establishing SOPs and having a better way to organize data even if it's just like a Google and a Dropbox where like everyone's dumping information to like when you first start like it should just not be siloed on personal computers. I think that's like

a big big aspect that I've seen is like the loss of information. Um because people just hold things on their personal computers and don't put those like interesting into an internal system that everyone can access. So at minimum you'd suggest something like a like a Google Drive or like a shared drive drop.

I would I would recommend just like a share like there there's something that like is shared that is visible to everyone like not just on your personal computer. Okay. That's that's uh I think that's awesome because I know I I also know personally that definitely happens. And uh is there I guess in the in in the um

from the perspective of of like using and organizing that information, do you have any suggestions or maybe you could talk about a story of again a company that like developed over time how to do this correctly? like I don't know if you have uh recommendations about how to think about the the information that you

ultimately want to standardize and how to document it uh so that it's not just like just being thrown you know just words randomly in a in a in a shared drive. Yeah. Yeah. So there's like a few there's like a few things to that. One, I think just like developing like standard operating

procedures, whether it's just like a document or it is actually like a certain platform that you use. Um I think the issue is that there's a lot of everyone is always debating on like what is the best system to use to like organize whatever you have. Um, but I think I think I actually want to go more

focused on uh a personal example where I've seen like a startup that I worked for. Um, they had not built out their infrastructure like they were they eventually be they and and this is also where Starbucks says, but they like were eventually sort of became like a data company. And when they first established

their data, they had never built it to be like the size of samples or the size of like the work that they were going to be doing. So like the data that they were going to be generating even though they knew they were like a data company like they went with like the cheapest packages for everything.

And then by the time they were actually scaling up and this was just going into their seed round like their their systems were not prepared to handle the amount of data that they had and then everything had to be like bootstrapped like backwards like you there's a lot of like MacGyver duct taping of all of that

in the background to like keep these things functioning. Um and that was something that I thought was like pretty concerning. what what uh what could they have done to avoid that? Um I think that this this sounds like this sounds kind of like harsh to say, but like don't don't cheap out on like

this the easiest cheapest software or like the free software when you like start off. Like I know you're bootstrapping, but like especially when you know that you're a data company, like they should have picked something that they could have continued to grow into, not just picked the cheapest option because it was what worked at the

time. And you're and you're talking about documentation software. It was it wasn't just it wasn't just documentation. It was like the way they were generating data like the way they were storing the data that they were generating. Okay. Have have you ran into like is this type of conversation something common that would come up at the engine

when you were working up uh with companies? It wouldn't be documentation. It would mostly be like technology is where I would say most of the conversations or like fundraising that we would have. Um, but it would also be like the engine kind of ran as like part of the part of like the nice thing about the engine is

we kind of did a little bit of that for them. So things like onboarding and like figuring out how to like take care of like the people in your company was something that the engine like helped figure out for you. like they were still a registered member of your company, but like things like figuring out safety

documentation or like help making sure that your like insurance is up to date, like those are the things that that like the engine would help figure out for you. How do you think about uh and is are are things like company gatherings and parties and things like that? Is that part of this area of of hiring and and

people managing? It sounds so silly, but like you should hang like you don't need to be like we're not in the era of like your co-workers or your family, but like you should hang out and do things together. Like just like building that comfort so people can communicate with each other is like very necessary. And

that's like not just like oh like rely on the engine to like schedule the happy hour the the like building happy hours that they do or something like that, but it's like you as a company should plan to do something like that. Do you do do you have plans to manage uh events like

that in the new role that you're stepping into? I'm gonna I have a few suggestions. Yeah. Okay. Well, does it fall under like the umbrella of responsibility? Yes. Specifically, the role that I'm going to be is a chief of staff and so that is a very all-encompassing role.

Okay. I would say so uh along this along this theme, so that's I think super useful. I mean something I'm so curious about is the whole it's funny like the standard operating procedures of how to create standard operating procedures you know like in a company when to do it how much energy to give it all how to organize it

all those things I think are really not sexy to talk about things that really can make or break you know a period of time or or a hiring decision or things like that so I think that's important um other other than that because that's a personal interest of mine when it comes to uh building a team at a startup that

is under 10 people. You know what what else are we talking about? What are the other things that that matter? Um this goes back this I would say like making sure everyone is getting along is one aspect of it and I say that specifically because like I have seen in a lot of the startups not just like

through my experience at the engine but startups I worked at where it's like I have seen people get like fired. I've seen people get laid off. I have seen like new hires being brought in that like didn't go through a proper interview process. And I think like really building like the community of

people and making sure everyone feels like invested and connected to the people as they're being brought on. Um, okay. Three questions. One, how do you do that? Yeah. Is it just everything we talked about, the culture, management, the the the values, the uh the gettogethers periodically? Is is that what we're talking about? So, what I uh I think a

really good example is like when you start a company and you're two people, you're just like, "Okay, let me hire like a friend." Um like let me just hire this person I know. Uh but you need to make sure that like not just you, one of the founders is bringing on someone you

know. It's like these other people who are on your team, your other co-founders need to get to know this person. Okay. Okay. And I have seen in multiple companies where people just like bring in their friends and then they realize they're work bringing in their friend was not necessarily the best decision.

Like they didn't do an interview process. They were just like, "Oh, we've worked together before, but working together is different than having your friend suddenly reporting to you." Yeah. Yeah. So then, well, that goes right into my second question, which is you mentioned a proper interview process. What is that? How do you do

that? Um, okay. So, there is a ton of resources online about how to do a proper interviewing process, but like the basic standard of just like actually not just checking like do they have the right technical credentials, but also like making sure they're a right fit with the team. Like having them get to

know each individual person on the team because again like when you're less than 10 people, you every every like bit of time counts. You all working very closely together. So, you need to make sure you can actually communicate with this person. Um, and that and that like information is being shared and that you

are able to go to them and ask questions and get feedback or you are able to like help each other out when when like things are really hard because in that stage like people are grinding away like late at night or you're doing like you're just doing like more hours and you're spending a lot of time together

that like you really should make sure that you actually like this person. So, are are we talking about like how do you how do you establish whether or not you can communicate effectively with someone in an interview like without trying to work with them for a month or two?

Yeah. So I think understanding understanding yourself in terms of what are the best communication styles for you, what is asking someone what's the best way for them to receive feedback and how to get feedback and then also understanding people's work styles and how they like to be managed are just like basic fundamental questions to ask

that I think especially with my experience being with a lot of technical founders these are things that they've never really thought about yet because they have just been like getting their PhD D working at a lab bench and sort of just like most PhDs are like you are in a group of like working in a lab or you

are in a cohort but it's a very singular experience. So when when when we're talking about the resources online you know what what uh what types of resources are there? Okay so there are career coaches there is I mean straight up you can chat GBT this as well. Um there are person there

are like forums there are surveys there are articles you can read like there is a lot of really good like management 101 like leadership 101 like anyone who's in a like founder founder cohort like talking to other founders like there is a lot of resources and support that people have that they can offer to help

you. Cool. Uh related question. How do you know when to fire? I I so so so this is this is like I feel like really really bad not bad saying this. Okay. when you we're just going to go to like I'm not going to speak on like bigger organizations but just like you're 10

you're your preede you're less than 10 people or you're 10 people like um every every like I don't want to say like every second counts but like every day counts like like you you only have 18 months six months of runway you know like every day actually counts and Like you if if someone is if you are not able to

make it work with someone after like 2 months like that is that is like a hu and you have like six to eight months of runway like that you you got like that you really got to like make a decision there. But like what what is not making it work? You know, because I feel like

it's it's uh unless unless you're very diligent about doing your preparation and having performance standards and things like this, like how do you know when it's not working out and when someone just needs a couple more weeks? Yeah. So, there are a few aspects to it.

It's like is this is this person like like are you setting them impossible standards or is this person just not able to meet those standards based on like you know the data that you have to generate or the results that you need.

Um and so there is like two there's like aspects to that I think like I'm going to go to an example that I had at a company that I worked at. Um, so there was someone that no one really wanted to work with and I was hired to directly report to that person and that was like

a known culture thing within the organization. But it was this but it was like a understaffed department that was generating data that was like good enough to keep the company kind of like getting by with the information they needed to report to investors and to get their next round, but like this person

was not pleasant to work with and everyone knew that. Um, and then when I was hired to report directly to this person, I started like going through the data, finding out that there weren't SOPs for anything, and the only way that I could learn the information was this person telling me this information. Um,

and that person would withhold information from me like over the course of several weeks um, until they felt like I had done enough work to sort of like deserve that information. But up until then, I would be running experiments and then doing things wrong because I was having information withheld for like a critical step in

that process. Okay? And then once I learned the whole process from beginning to end and started generating data, my numbers were 30% less than this person's data, like my reported numbers. And then from that, um, I started like bringing this up that my numbers were incorrect and people just kept assuming I'm new and so I must

just be doing this wrong. I need to redo this again. Okay. Um, then they had another person come through and look through the whole process and found out that this person had been inflating the numbers by 30% and that my numbers had been correct the entire time.

And what happened after that? That person was fired. So, so is the like is the lesson for who was that person relative to the founders? Were they a friend like were they were they vetted correctly? They were a they were some it was someone that they hired through a recommendation um and that they took that

recommendation better like at at a higher value than like that person's interview process. that person was still interviewed but people did not like them that much but they were hired because of their technical expertise. Okay. So then does the does does the uh does the lesson come back to like the interview process? You know in that

situation it comes from from remembering that just because you have someone brilliant doesn't mean that they're necessarily the best person to work for and they're not necessarily the best person to have for your company. Wow. What uh did that company uh stabilize after that?

They are doing well now. Um but that was a pretty tumultuous time in that company. Got it. Um okay. Well, that's uh that's that's cool. I we are coming up on um uh time and just like normal I have you know exponential amount of more questions than when we started cuz uh because this is such I appreciate

you taking all the questions. I mean a lot of them are are pretty gray area which is why it's fun for me to ask and you know hard for you to answer which is nice. So, I guess within the top, I mean, we we went really deep about um you know, less than 10 people, what it

takes to start. You listed those subjects at the beginning and we decided to go this direction with it, which I'm glad. Is there any is there anything off the top of uh your head that you feel like is critical to at least mention in an overview fashion around uh managing people and hires and culture at a

company that's that's less than 10 that we haven't covered yet? H um I think I think like I think like people uh need like should get feed like again this is again for that level small team like you want feedback from everyone like like

everyone everyone's input matters a lot more. I would say I don't want to just say like equally, but like because you're so small, you really should value a lot of these like what people are saying. Um because everything is so close-knit.

Uh and I think that there is still this level where and again this I've just seen this with multiple companies where it's just like oh the founders are hiring their friends you know the CEO is hiring this like person that they know um and internal referrals are really helpful and very necessary to like make

some really good hires but like the internal referral shouldn't be the like more more important than like the input of what your team is because these are the people that are going to also be working with them as well.

Do you have any recommendations about uh general things like how frequently to provide feedback, how how to structure feedback, anything like that? Um I would say every founder needs to learn how to receive feedback like that. That is a big one. Um and and Yeah, I would say I would say that's probably it.

Do you mean do you mean learn how to receive feedback in a way of like just not get offended or not getting defensive? Like it's it's not I don't want to say it's like not personal, but like it it's not it's not as personal as you are as you feel like it is. Does it is are are there are

there any uh is there any advice that you could give to a founder to uh help you know them not take feedback personally? Um I would say that like the people who are there are there because they're like committed to what you're doing. Like they're taking a risk to be there. Uh and and what and and like what they're

saying like is not a reflection of like you doing something wrong. It's them like trying to help you build this company or like you know because again it's like you need you're trying to like make this this idea work.

Well, are there are there any like particular uh structures of feedback that you've seen be successful uh with founders and founding teams? Um I wouldn't say there's like a particular structure. I think I would say it is like as founders are sort of like even though like these teams are really small it's like there is still kind of even if

you're like at a small starting you're like there's no hierarchy here like there is still this natural hierarchy because you're like the founder the CEO and like remember that like remember that that's how people are viewing you. Um and and that and that that sometimes that can make you seem unapproachable and being able to actually like

cultivate an environment where people can't like do feel like they can be honest with you. So it is like if someone rece gives you feedback not having an immediate like defensive reaction or like trying to like explain it or something like that. It's like just listen to them like just just like just listen.

Just listen. Ask uh ask further discovery questions. Yeah, potentially. Um like stay neutral and just listen and qualifying questions and then like go have your like feelings that you have like away from them. But if like you stay calm, they will stay calm.

Cool. That's that's that's awesome. I think that's actually huge uh huge advice. So, uh, I I I want to close with two of my favorite questions. And since you're in an in between period, uh, you can answer this how you like. You could use, you know, your prior, um, uh, uh, job at the at the engine or you could

talk about right now, but I'm curious, what's the biggest hurdle for you right now? Again, working at the engine as an accelerator or or, um, you know, now, and how is it also an opportunity? This is not the biggest hurdle for me right now, but uh it's it's it is the hurdle that a lot of people have right

now. It's just like funding is so tough right now. Oh my god, it is it is the hardest it's ever been. Like grants, like the standards for what preede series AR, like those bars have gotten so high and I really empathize for everyone in that position right now. Um, I would say like

the other side of this is like, and I'm not like if you can make it, if you can secure funding in this environment, like this this will pass eventually, like I and and honestly, I think the worst of it was last year. I I might we might look at this in the future and then be like, "Oh, she didn't

even know it was coming." But like I think I think last year was was hopefully the worst of it in the sense of like everyone was shocked. All these changes happened. No one knew what to do. Everyone kind of froze.

Um and now people are like kind of having to make decisions and go out and like figure figure it out right now. And I think the people who figure it out, like you're going to be like so much like more on top of everything when like things stable out stable out more. Like

when if you secure funding now, I think that this is like this like I think in the future you will be able to like persevere through way harder than like you've been able than than like most people will.

Yes. Optimism. Yes. I love it. Put it out there. That's good stuff. Lastly, sort of for you, what inspires you? Um, this sounds so silly cuz I was just like I'm like, but like the the people who the people who I met through the engine, all the founders that are building all these companies, like they

have truly inspired me. Like I I have gotten great. I'm not just I'm not just like saying because it sounds like such a nice thing to say, but like I have been in a lot of different industries. I have helped build a lot of different types of technology. Um, and and I have like seen

so many different trends in the space and being able to meet people who have new ideas, who are thinking about them critically and thoughtfully and creatively and and have like very like integrable smart solutions has been like one of the biggest motivating things for me. It's just like seeing all of these smart people come here with these really

good ideas and then seeing the success of them being able to hire their first team member or being able to close that first round or being able to win that grant has been like absolutely rewarding to be able to see on a personal level.

Nice shout out. Shout out to those founders. Shout out to all founders everywhere especially at the end. shout out. Uh if anyone else was inspired to get in contact or follow along with your journey which is just about to uh launch to another phase, what's the best way to do that?

You can find me on LinkedIn. I'm the uh Serena Dal like at LinkedIn. That's the best place to find me. I have posted regularly there. I think I might drop off a little bit just like take a little bit of time behind the scenes while I like step into my next role. But I'll I'll be I'll be, you

know, active on there again soon. Cool. Well, thank you so much for this combo and this uh you know, this brief uh break in your life. This is exciting uh time capsule back on and uh I'm excited for the next one. Good luck with everything you're doing.

Thank you, Blake. It was awesome to be here. Thank you so much for talking to me. Oh, yeah.