A New Approach to Energy Storage | Thomas Nann, Founder & CEO @ Allegro Energy

Oh, today on the show we have Thomas Naan. Thomas is a CEO and co-founder of Algra Energy out of Australia. And what Algra Energy has done is create a new platform chemistry for battery storage. Uh if that makes sense to you, then you'll enjoy this conversation. And if it doesn't, like I did not, it'll still

be a good conversation for you because he does explain it well. [laughter] What's also interesting about Thomas's story is uh the background that he comes from from academia uh transitioning into entrepreneurship also Alco's journey looking at the manufacturing landscape in Australia and choosing to construct their novel technology out of offtheshelf components to stabilize

their supply chain and d-risk their technology further uh and also their commercialization strategy of creating a partnership with one of the biggest utilities in Australia to further derisk their technology uh and deploy incrementally scaled pilots within this I don't know comfort maybe of a large scale utility uh relationship. So lots of things to learn from Thomas'

perspective. I'm very excited for the future of this company and shout out as always to our partner companies clean techch growth lab. If you're looking to grow in clean tech we do it with them and the producers of this podcast and friends. And with that, I give you Thomas.

Oh, welcome to another episode of The Grove. Thank you to our sponsors mentioned just before this, but without them, it would not be possible to interview awesome people doing awesome things like Thomas. Welcome. Yeah. Thanks, Blake. It's a pleasure to meet you.

That's right. And I didn't I did think about it, but I didn't mention it. I appreciate the pin on your blazer. I think it's very stylish. Oh, okay. So, do you want me to talk about this or not?

Hey, I mean, if there's if there's a story behind Yeah. I was just gonna I was going to ask if you could before we get into all the uh stuff about your your growth journey, just a brief introduction of yourself and what you're building. So, if the pin ties into that, perfect.

So, now I now that you mentioned the pin, this is the logo of Hunteret, which is a business association in the Hunter region where we are located. And I'm wearing it today because after this um conversation I will give a talk there or actually here I'm already at the premises anyway. So [laughter]

okay I I'm not sure if that is of any interest to your listeners. Yeah. [laughter] I guess before today then before you were speaking at that at the organization uh you know a little bit about your background. Yes. Okay. So um I'm actually an exacademic. Uh so for for most of my career um I've been an academic. I

started straight after my PhD. Always stuck around at universities and went through the the typical stages of universities up to tenure and then leading institutes and all of this stuff. But one of the things so one of the reasons why I wanted to be an academic in the first place other than teaching which I really enjoyed um

was that I wanted to have an impact and um make a difference um in in in the world and um the I've got certain talents and certain weaknesses like everyone and and and my talents are definitely more in the sciency area and um so um what what we what what I did at

some point in my career, you can call that midlife crisis or not, is that I that I s really um do do I would want to do this to the end of my my my life basically writing papers and grant applications and um um rinse and then start over again.

Um and um so um I also felt always very passionate about our climate and climate change and clean tech and all of this stuff. And at some point, and that was probably now like 15 years ago or a bit more even, um, I I thought, come on, I want to do something really big now. and

and and at the time I I I was working a lot at renewable energy generation, but I realized actually when I moved to Australia, I realized there's such an abundance of of renewable energy available, lots of sunshine, lots of wind that generating renewable energy is not really the problem um in in transitioning to a renewable economy. Um

it is actually storing the energy. So, so matching supply and demand and kind of the most obvious thing is that the sun doesn't shine at night and we need to make that sure that the lights don't go out and so we need a lot of storage in the electricity grid to actually um

ensure energy security. So, and at the time there was not really that many options available and um so what I told my team is let's let's start again from scratch with a clean sheet of paper and and look into scalable and economically viable energy storage with a totally open mind and um so we did that and we

we went into weird and wonderful places. So we made made at some point a battery with with sea water. So ocean water and stuff like that and that kind of even worked but but of course that was not very good that battery but kind of this sort of stuff is what what we were doing

and um then we stumbled at some point um over something really new and um I'm not going into the details of the technology but it's called it's a new type of electrolyte. is called a micro emotion electrolyte and um and and that was really a big breakthrough and I realized relatively quickly that this actually

could be the answer to this um long duration energy storage um piece at scale that we were looking for and um well as they say the rest is history. So so we we did a lot of um fundamental research for many many years at various universities. We file patents and at some point I I just made the decision

for myself, okay, um I want to do this full-time. I want to focus on this until I retire and um I I resigned from from my university life and be became an entrepreneur. So So that that's that's in short my story. [snorts] So what what was your uh what was your academic focus?

So I'm a chemist by training. Um and um I was mainly when when I was teaching that was usually physical chemistry. So it it was at at the boundaries between physics and chemistry. So had you well I mean you just you just went through it. You were in academia and were teaching. Had you ever thought

about entrepreneurship? Had you ever thought of yourself as a founder or something that you wanted to do? or is that when it was that the the point in time where it happened when you had this realization about storage?

No. Um that started much earlier. I I kind of always liked the idea and actually I I started a business with my brother when I was still a student. So that that failed spectacularly um in in hindsight. I'm not surprised because we made every mistake you can make. Um, but I I I kind of always like

the idea of of of of starting something and being an entrepreneur. Um, but it it takes a lot of courage as you can think especially when when you're in an in an academic career despite of tenure and all of these things that happen at universities. It's it's a relatively safe job. So right

and [snorts] leave leaving that behind and doing something highly risky where the chances of failure are 90% of or so um yeah that takes a bit of of courage. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it was not a new thought.

Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So, so if it wasn't something that you had uh well, if if it was something you had considered before, when the opportunity finally presented, how long would you say uh it's it's been with Algra?

Not sure I understand the question. Um like like sometimes when I ask people, you know, well, when did you start your business? They go, well, you know, unofficially 15 years, officially seven years, something like that. So, if you could if you would put a number on how long you've been growing, how long? So

be before we so we incorporated Algro 21 and I would say roughly 10 years before that um kind of we we started the more fundamental research and and and did things that led to that. But perhaps one thing maybe interesting for some listeners that are also academics. So I I had as an academic I always had in my

mind okay before you start a company before you uh you you need a product and it has to be perfect kind of and um the and when I when I thought about that before electro before our breakthrough discovery um I I always thought well we're not quite there and it's it's not it's not good enough kind of

and um and now in hindsight what I realized it it is actually never good enough. You just have to do it at some point. Um and um with Selecro we we actually did that. we we we didn't wait until let's say all papers are published and all is said and done and and then

and I would say this was a big lesson that I learned um spinning out of universities because um most academics have kind of a little bit of a perfectionistic mindset and um and you're never finished if if you do research that's always another question that that that need that asks for an answer. Yeah. Um but as that's

not very entrepreneurial. So as an entrepreneur you just have to say okay this is good good is good enough and let's go for it and even though I don't know the answer to X Y and Z. Yeah. Hey that's perfect cuz what I was just about to ask so I'm glad that you

gave the uh the context to it. So with that in mind, I I guess w with that framing of coming out of university or coming from a an academic mindset where it's not always perfect and you just have to do it. How like at what point did you decide to incorporate and why

and how did you uh how did you go after your first uh pilots or customers? Yeah. So um the the the point where we decided to incorporate you know there there are several factors that played into this. So um one of my four co-founders finished his PhD um at at the time. So he basically needed a job

in other words. And that was kind of [laughter] an you know opportunity that that we said okay this is the right time to incorporate and and and and he was actually the first one who who the first employee where where my other co-founder and I were still kind of hanging around at university for a while. So so that

that but that that was more like um the circumstances. So in terms of the product and um the that we came to the point where we um where we said okay um I I might talk about this a bit later because we pivoted in terms of terms of the product but our first product which

is not our main product now. Um we we we thought at the time, okay, we we we we can get to to a point where we can actually sell this um or have some sort of MVP available within a year or so. Of course, that was a very optimistic fantasy that never happened, but um this

was kind of what what we saw at the time. So we we saw a runway with some seed funding that we raised to to to get um to the market. Um, but it was far from from perfect. So we we we had some kind of prototypes that looked really like a thing that you make

at a university, you know, so so not like a product. Um, but we we we we thought okay the we we saw the goal that that that was kind of the point when when when we also decided to do that.

So, so very interesting uh that that you mentioned about the uh the pivot. So then would you be able to talk about the first few experiences that you had deploying that technology and how and how you gathered the information to support a pivot.

Yeah. So the one thing to understand is that this microulsion electrolyte is a platform. So it's not just one chemistry like if you if you heard of batteries you may have heard of lithium chemistry or venadium chemistry and it's not like that. So it is it is it is a it is like

a chemistry platform that can be used in different types of storage devices. So it's more like a new concept of doing this sort of stuff. And um our first and and and these this electrolyte works very well in something called super capacitors. um but it also works very well in other types of

batteries and um in our first product was a super capacitor. So so we thought this is an easy thing because our electrolyte is just a drop in solution pretty much for what's existing with a whole list of of of benefits and we thought that's an easy win. So we we just take what's already there, put our

electrolyte in, sell it, done we're getting rich and exit. Um now that that failed spectacularly for a number of reasons. So one is that it it just wasn't that easy. So but but this is just what it is. But in terms of go to market the the other thing that we didn't anticipate was that how important

the location is where you are. So we are based in Australia and these super capacitors uh the main markets for these super capacitors are in mobility like in cars or um machinery and this sort of thing and [snorts] in Australia there is simply no no manufacturing base for this. So so so none of the products that use super

capacitors are manufactured in Australia. Interesting. So we we hit a wall really quickly. Um, so everyone loved us and loved our tech, but we had just zero customer traction. And um, and then interestingly, so we we were approached by companies asking for a different type of battery that is now our main product. It's called a flow

battery where we use the same electrolyte platform in this flow battery. And these custom and it's a completely different field of application. So these low batteries are totally at the other end compared with super capacitors. Therefore large scale grids scale um energy storage and so so so companies approached us and were asking us about this and at first

we were a bit reluctant because how did they find you? Um I think Australia is a small country five million people and at some point if everyone knows everyone it's um and they um they just the word spreads and so sorry just to clarify so you're saying in in the previous uh attempt

with the um super capacitors Yeah. Yeah. There there wasn't there was no deployment that that you guys happened. It was when you tried to define a market to then sell to, you discovered that there was not going to be uh customers in in Australia.

Pretty much. Yes. Yeah. Okay. And the um but it wasn't that straightforward because um I just give you one example, right? Um the so the there is a light rail here in Newcastle where I'm sitting right now. Okay.

And this light rail runs on super capacitors and uh that was one of the first um light rails or tram systems that that used that technology and it's actually a big deal. And if you when when I showed to investors for example, oh look, here's here's the tram in Newcastle and here's the product, our

product that actually could go in there and it's great because it's not flammable, yada yada yada, all the usual stuff. Um, they loved that and we we kind of said, okay, if the tram is running on this, so then there is a market and there's a product. But we what we didn't realize is that the

company that bought this light rail, they bought it from Spain and the thing was completely manufactured in Europe. And the fact that super capacitors are in there, they this company would never have considered an Australian startup to to to work with. And it took a while for for for that to sink in.

How long would you say to a couple years maybe or months? not a couple pro probably half a year to a year. Okay. And and then it was it was kind of a gradual transition. Um because the [snorts] so we were then contacted by by for example Australia's largest utility.

So their their name is origin and they they're now an investor and a partner we work with and they were asking for this other type of battery, this flow battery. And we were quite reluctant in the beginning to to pivot because um it is a big deal if you if you could pivot

a completely new product. Of course. Yes. We still at at the beginning of the journey. How did you make that decision ultimately then? Um we just saw saw the opportunity. We realized okay the super capacitors are not going anywhere in Australia but the market for this other type of battery the flow battery is huge. So if you look

at there there's actually literature about the TAM um in in that sector and and also the there was a market in Australia for this so we didn't have to go overseas to um to get initial traction um and it's at some point it just made sense and then Origin this big company also offered to invest in us to to put

more money into it that we developed that product Yeah. And you know, money talks. Okay. Okay. Okay. And and and it's been uh I guess with that timeline, maybe it's been three years since that pivot if you guys incorporated in 21 four years maybe.

Um yeah. Yeah. Something like that. Two two three years. It took bit more than two years probably to to to really build this pro. So actually um this month we have delivered our first commercial battery to origin and it's yeah so it's a right now we we are pretty much at this point where we we have

achieved this. Hold on. I don't I I I usually have uh little animations I can do. I don't know how loud this is going to be for you but I'm going to try to do a clapping noise. Can you hear that?

No. Okay. I I imagine it. Okay. You'll see when it's edited anyway. There you go. Congratulations. That's great. But that but that's a good anchor for the conversation. So I want to come back to that commercial deployment. Uh I I want to understand from the moment you pivoted up until the first commercial deployment, how that

progressed for you. Uh and then after that we can talk about um where where you guys are going from there. But before we talk about you know those those three four years of development how from you seem very good and articulate at understanding you know you I mean you even said it yourself uh you

know I'm not going into the technology a lot of times and one of the core reasons why I started this work is because people like you masterfully intelligent in a in a really specific domain come up with a super impactful technology and then cannot communicate it to uh to buyers that don't understand it and then

it never ultimately um you know gets into the world. So how how do you approach and I how did you approach both um taking this this complicated uh techn the novel and complicated technology and uh sell it effectively to investors and sell it you know the vision to um uh buyers.

Yeah. So I' I'd like to go back to my academic roots [snorts] um in answering that. And so in in my academic life I I did observe that [snorts] very often and I was actually involved in a lot of entrepreneurial stuff of other people um that um academics make one really big mistake

when they try to commercialize their their research and that is it's this typical hammer and nail problem. Um, so they discover something amazing. Um, and um, they then they go around say, "Look, I've got this great hammer. Find me a nail for it." So or or or in in in other words, I I've got this solution. Um, and

now I need a problem that that solution solves. And that rarely ever works. Um, because yeah, of this obvious um discrepancy. I think one thing that that my team and I did differently is that we actually started the other way around. We started with a problem that we want to solve. So we said okay this this energy storage is

a problem. So we we solved the problem. So, so, so that was kind of aligned from from the very beginning and um that made it when I then went to investors and to customers made it much easier for me because I'm actually addressing a problem and not presenting a solution without a without a problem. and and and

I think especially for academic or exacademic entrepreneurs, this is really probably the most common failure point that that that I can see. And then the other thing academics love to teach of course or at least many of them like me.

Yes. And they the other mistake that I see very often especially with with people with academic background is that they try to teach their audience. So they they they they for example they in our battery is not flammable. So they don't say oh it's not flammable then say oh um it's not flammable because and

then comes a three-hour lecture that that no one's interested in. Um so the these are kind of the main things that I observed. Yeah. I mean I mean I guess cuz cuz uh it's like I'm I'm just thinking about uh you know being in the room with when you raised your initial seed round. let's

say even before you pivoted. Uh I think being based in a problem is very effective like you're saying and uh and also not over I think it's it it may be a tough line for some people not overexplaining like like you're saying you know it's not flammable that's what's important right and if someone's

you know very technically apt then you can go into the details of why but how do you know what the line is between how indepth to go into why the techn because the you know the like we said the problem that you're addressing is important, but it's also the technology that you've invented to address that

problem is also part of what what makes you know your company valuable. So, how do you know what is too much as far as explaining your technology? So, honestly, um I think it's just by reading the audience. Okay. So, so um so for example, yesterday I was talking with with a customer for the first time um first

meeting and I've got my pitch deck and there are five slides that explain what a flow battery is and um the the customer then said it turned out they knew all of this already. So they were very very familiar with the technology.

So I just skipped the first 10 slides and went straight straight to into the wheats what what they wanted to hear. But then others might not have ever heard of what of that and then I I go into more detail. So so so what I'm trying to say there's no standard thing that I do. I I try to read the room and

then react to to the audience. Okay. So I guess so I guess again just to put a tie on it. like you know maybe even ask a few questions potentially if if appropriate to the audience to to gauge maybe what what uh the interest in the technology is.

So if I meet someone for for the first time whether it's an investor or a customer I typically ask very early do you know what a flow battery is have you heard of that technology and then I already know um kind of how much I I have to explain or or where where to start roughly. Great,

super. That's that that's great advice. I appreciate that. So, now we have uh the the commercial deployment. So, congratulations. If we can, you know, in in uh whatever a few minutes segment, if you could highlight what what was the life of of Algro, what was your life, you know, as one of the co-founders? Uh

going from the moment where Origin, that's the name. Yeah. Where Origin said, "We want a Flow battery and we'll invest in you for it." And then you guys said yes to um having your first commercial deployment. What what was that?

It was a wild ride of course. [laughter] So the I have to say so the original plan was that we get to this first deployment within a year roughly and in reality it took us two. So um so this is one thing that when I talk with other founders um especially in the hardware

area I have to say per if you're interested we can talk more about this but there's big difference between hardware and software um but but especially in the hardware area it always takes longer and costs more um than than you anticipate um and the so what was kind of surprising for me in stepping through

this is um how many kind of things problems and difficulties came along that I didn't anticipate because if you if you have your perfect lab prototype and it looks all beautiful then kind of I thought okay we'll just build a bigger one of those and then we're there but this is completely wrong

so there there are when you're scaling to to an actual product from a lab prototype type. There are so many things that um don't go as as anticipated. It's a bit wishy-washy what I'm saying now, but I I could go in 500 rabbit holes and and explain little details, but it's it's it's so much stuff that

Yeah. Well, I guess I I guess ju just just overall then. Well, that means we should schedule a second episode. That's what that is because I'm interested. But uh but I I I would I would say overall So, you said yes. You said under a year.

Uh something that comes to mind first is I guess relative to what you thought your product would be two years ago, how similar or different is the actual deployment? It's actually really similar. Okay. Um yeah, but I think it has to do with the product. Um because this this type of battery, it's a big thing. So they

are they're physically really large systems and um they are um the the difficulties are not so much about uh the figuring out that some chemistry thing doesn't work. It's it's more about this this scaling bit. So I give you one example just to to put a little bit of me meat on it. So that's

so um if you have a lab prototype and um so we store our energy in liquids. So in a lab prototype you um have let's say one liter of liquid and a little pump like a pump in an aquarium and you um and then you pump that that liter of liquid um in circles and charge it and

discharge it in this. That's why it's called a flow battery because liquids are flowing. Um so everything works wonderful, everyone's happy. Now you do that with 10,000 LERs and suddenly um you run into problems that you didn't even think of. So for example, if you have a 10,000 liter tank and you um then

you start to pump your liquid in in in circles, then in this tank, for example, it's not mixing properly. Um because if you have an inlet at the top and an outlet at the bottom, it might just kind of shortcut that and the the 9,000 lers of these 10,000 never are never circulating. So so the this sounds

trivial but but this is the sort of stuff that that is then then coming up and then you find some solution for that but the product is still kind of the same. Okay. So to two things the first is when you have an expectation from a from a customerf facing standpoint um from a

commercialization you know deployment standpoint how do you manage the relationship between a client that says uh I you know I would hope that a company like this you know like you said you know under they understand hard tech they understand deep tech they understand the development of things the challenges of scaling but how do you

manage a relationship where you're they've invested in you bas based on uh a timeline of one year and it takes two to deploy you know what were those conversations like was it under you know were they understanding were there any points where it looked like maybe the partnership wouldn't happen uh you know

what would you speak to as far as that yeah so I have to say um origin for us was a great investor is still and and partner because they they they support us a lot and um they are not interested really or they're not interested in our little first batteries So they are

interested in kind of gigawatt gawatt hours of of batteries. So they they run coal fire power plants and stuff like this. So so it's a really really big scale and they they see the need and they see that there is not really a technology that meets that need and they saw the potential in us and so they are their

investment was mainly to get us there. So, and they they told us that straight away. They they said we we're seeing this is a first of a kind and so they that was not really a big problem for them. Okay. But but but I have to say that now I see now talking

with other customers that they're actually different customer segments and customers expectations are also changing. So there there are these early adopters that are willing to take a risk and sometimes pay a little bit more um because they see the potential and they want to see if the product works for them and um and they and they're willing

to um to also um um take delays or stuff like this. It's not not not a drama. So but we we're kind of beyond that now. So um the and and the the customer segment we we are talking now with all the customers that now come to us they they want warranties and they want

performance warranties and um they want historical data and this sort of stuff. Um and and that is a completely different game. Um right so so so it's shifting more and more um towards this exciting but definitely but definitely a challenge. Um so so I got uh uh another question about that is you already

mentioned one of the things which is thinking about you know things that you would never expect as far as the challenges of scaling a lot of uh deep tech hardware uh founders that I speak to it's very common to have something successful in a lab and then uh and then continue to to incrementally scale and say oh you

know we found it let's say one liter we you know we found success in five liters we found success in 10 liters industrial deployment is like you're speaking to is thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of you know liters, you know, whatever uh you know unit you want to say. So is there anything else to that you would

say to uh if you were speaking to a deep tech hardware founder that something you've learned about uh scaling to industrial Yeah. So the that is really a tricky and very good question and I have to say my answer is in part very specific to us.

So one big problem that for us was always that our product even our smallest product is really expensive. So, so the the type of batteries that we make, they make no sense if you build a small one. And a small one, for example, a domestic battery like the Tesla Power Wall that would make a battery that size

would make no commercial sense for us. It um it starts to make sense when at a much larger scale like more than a megawatt. And um so the and and the cost of building that is going into the multiple of millions already. So what I find when when when I talk with many

other hardware um entrepreneurs is that if you have a little gadget that costs you $200 to produce, not a problem. You just make 500 and give them away for free. And then and then that way you you start to get this initial traction.

um for for us uh and people like us it's much more difficult because um even the smallest one is we cannot give that away for free. We would be bankrupt in absolutely no time and it's it it's already a significant investment for for someone who who is taking that risk. Um and and that is actually a major hurdle.

So I've seen um companies um in a in in a similar space to ours um going bankrupt because they took that incremental approach. So so they they actually scaled from a liter to let's say 100 liters to thousand liters. But then these products there were people that wanted these small products. For example, I'm I get every week people ask

me, "Oh, I I have solar on my roof at home and I want a battery. Make one for us." So there is a market but it's not a commercially viable market. So the these companies I have two particularly in mind that that um and I'm not going to name them that that went through that they they burned too

much money on on this incremental scaling because they never made a profit with that and then they died before they reached the scale and um what that meant for us strategically. So we we realized that and we we also observed what what others try to do and we we we pretty much said okay we have to do the big

jump straight away. Um so we we are telling customers we are not making anything smaller than a megawatt and if they are not interested in that or not willing to do this then we move to someone else. But it's it's kind of self-preservation because we we we be we cannot afford the loss when we if we go incrementally

through this this scaling process. Yeah. So so would you say the only way that you're able to do that though make that jump is by securing an industrial or um commercial partner at at the scale of something like Origin.

Um the customers are there. So actually one of our angel investors in our seat round said you are the only company I'm investing where the product market fit is not a question um because they it's so obvious. So so we we need that long duration storage.

The um the way we we make this big jump I have to say has mainly to do with manufacturing. Um so the and please interrupt me if that is getting too much into techn technicalities but um I don't know how much you know about Australia but manufacturing anything in Australia is a really bad idea because um the the cost

of manufacturing is extremely high and um also there is historically not really an advanced manufacturing base. So um doing that is not good. So the the the way we we we strategized manufacturing is that we said okay the best thing is we are not manufacturing anything if we just assemble the system. So we took a

commercial of the shelf strategy and designed our system in a way that we can contract components out very easily and um so pretty much the whole battery we are not making really anything um we are just collecting all of the parts.

Yeah. So no, we're building a supply chain other words and then and then and then assemble this this this this battery and that way that that kills two birds with one stone. So the the first one is that it enables us to actually manufacture economically in Australia which is really difficult and but also

it allows us to scale much faster because we can then um work with contractors that are already at scale and um and we don't have to build any of that. No, that's a that's that's a great point and something that I have that that I have heard a few times, not enough. So I

I'm glad that you said it again, but uh there was a for example a desolination company that came up with a particular type of uh innovation with their membrane. This is uh months ago um that I interviewed him and they they took a similar approach where they had this uh this this machine they wanted to build

and um and they took uh a bunch of components off the shelf to be able to assemble it and and then you know uh demonstrate the technology, but it's a bunch of uh things that they just put together, you know. So that's that's that's very interesting.

It it has if I can just add that it has a third advantage that we didn't anticipate and that is you can localize that very easily. So you can do that pretty much anywhere on the planet. um you just need to build this local supply chain and um that's the advantage of that is that if we are not thinking

about tariffs for a moment but it's easy to get around tariffs with that but but also um other countries where there is a much lower cost base like for example India if you just localized the kind of copy and paste this this strategy there um we we actually did we didn't do it in

real just paper exercise but we cut the costs in half just like that. Another rabbit hole of questions we could go down, but I have two more for you. I know you're you're getting ready for this uh this conference here. So, um my my first one is as far as growth goes with your first

commercial deployment, you're talking to to prospects and customers now. What is the biggest hurdle that you're facing and how is it also an opportunity? the I the biggest hurdle is really that we haven't got a history and um it is it's it's first adopter early adopter risk. So no one wants to be the first

but actually no one wants to be the second, third and fourth and fifth either. So um so the that is for us clearly the biggest hurdle at the moment. So it's great that we've got this first battery deployed now and we people can go there and see it running and see it works. So that that is a a

big plus and and open stores. But um but but still I would say the biggest hurdle is is to get people to try it and put money on the table for it. Does that does that come through uh like how are you approaching it? Is it just the the the education, you know, getting

on calls with people? I don't know, like marketing materials, you know, is it really just getting education out there about uh the the level of risk the relative to what's perceived, right? The lower level of risk relative to what's perceived.

Yeah. I I well, in all honesty, I think it there is a risk, you know, if we if we don't make it commercially and someone buys a 10 million assets, that could be a stranded asset at at some point. I I I completely understand that why why why some people um are reluctant or or are

waiting um before they before they buy something. Um but I think the the the way out of it is to find the the customers that have a little bit of a higher risk appetite or that have just so much of a need for this sort of product that they don't care. and and

these people exist, so they they're out there. Um it's a bit more difficult um to to find them, but Got it. But that's pretty much what we do at the moment. Cool. Um so last question for you then.

With with all this work to be done with all this storage to in the future hold, you know, all this impact, what inspires you to keep to keep going? Well, um I the the the thing that always inspired me and that so so so there are two things. So so one is a personal answer.

I really en enjoy enjoy doing what I love and having the freedom to to pursue that. Um and this is just I have absolutely no regrets um that I I I left the university system. Um so so more more on on the on the side of the product and Allegro I I well it's kind of also

personal so I think that climate change is a big threat to to humanity and I I know that your current administration doesn't believe that but it's it's I think there's scientific evidence for that and um and and we in countries like Australia we we see that every day um pretty much how the climate is changing

And um I really want to make a difference and do something that that benefits people and that that's that stops that. And so this this is what drives me. Nice. Yeah. Let's go, Thomas. So if if anyone else is inspired to get in touch or follow along, what's the best way to do so?

Sorry, was that a question? Yeah, I was saying it was if anyone else is inspired to get in touch or follow along with your journey, what's the best way to do so? Yeah. Uh, so the best thing is to contact me on LinkedIn. That is the only social media where I'm present.

Um, uh, just look for Thomas Nanro and you'll find me quite easily. Cool. Well, thank you so much for making the time before uh before you went to speak, you know, before uh, you know, going and doing all this work. Toss, this was a great conversation. We got leaving with more questions than I came

in with, which is a good sign. So, thank you for your time. It was an absolute pleasure.